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Is there any bike company better than S&M?  RSS Feed

#176 2017-01-06 10:22am

D1976
Pro Member
From: Atlanta, Georgia
Registered: 2011-08-03
Posts: 849

Re: Is there any bike company better than S&M?

As far as I can tell, S&M was one of the first companies to acknowledge what was being done with the bikes during the time and try to make adjustments. A LOT of bike companies didn't seem to care less if their product was buckling underneath people during the late 80's/early 90's. To a lot of those companies, they were making children's bikes and I would imagine that most of them were mostly unaware with what their consumers were doing with them.   

But it was more than just making more durable bikes. I think a good argument could be made that S&M was the brand that brought BMX into puberty....both in terms of their marketing and who the bikes were made for, they made BMX seem much more grown up than just a few years earlier. Whether we admit it or not, for many years BMX was mostly marketed towards children ages 8-12 or so. S&M's audience has always been older. I don't know if S&M was the cause of this or a symptom of it, but the late 80's was the really the beginning of people staying on the bike into late teen years and adulthood - before that for most once you reached 18 as a general rule you were more or less done.

In 1986, you had clean cut child star actor style tween kids like Trevor Hernandez and Scotty Freeman smiling in ads for scooters and Spinmasters wearing uniforms, marketing directly to young kids. There was a big emphasis on following the rules, wearing your uniform (marketed as "safety gear" but I was never quite sure how vinyl pants were supposed to help in a crash), being clean cut, "showmanship" etc.  Videos were generally very tame, sterile instructional how-to's with generic music (or white guy rap)

Smash cut to just a few years later, you had a brand making bikes named after the world's most infamous pornstar, naming their cranks after dick piercings, naming pegs after drug paraphernalia, branding their freestyle frame as the "Heavy as F**K", (both as competition to and a jab at Standard) There was a new emphasis on street riding, not wearing uniforms, NOT following the rules, etc. Videos were underground free for alls featuring people running from the cops, nudity, getting into fights, drinking and smoking weed, crashing severely, all to stolen unauthorized hardcore punk and rap. Can you imagine Mongoose making a bike named after John Holmes?

Also, S&M was indirectly involved with GO being shuttered. The story was that GT, being one of the last flagship brands, and therefore the one that bought the majority of the ad space once most of the other big companies went away, didn't like S&M and resented them being constantly mentioned and featured in the magazine. They pulled their advertising and the magazine folded, creating the vacuum that birthed the then-even more subversive first incarnation of Ride BMX mag. 

The whole sport grew up in the space of just a couple of years.  I was an adolescent myself at the time, so it was timed perfectly for my generation.   

And all that time, they were bringing out new and better stuff (double thick one piece drops, super strong 2 piece bars (who doesn't love Slam Bars?) reinforced PitchForks were awesome, the Wedgie Jackson was a good idea, they were one of the first with the 1 1/8" headtube and the first with integrated headsets, etc.) That way the bikes could keep up with the us as we got older.

I don't know if S&M is necessarily the "best" brand in BMX, but they've definitely been one of the most important. I can't imagine what BMX would be like if they had never existed.

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#177 2017-01-06 10:55am

made2drag
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From: USA
Registered: 2012-03-15
Posts: 8222
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Re: Is there any bike company better than S&M?

nice post, D1976 and well said.  I think Standard was the first to do 1 1/8's and if I remember correctly their frames like the Lengthy, Shorty, STA and Trail Boss were the go-to frames for strength and geo, too.  Rick was a leader in making bikes for guys who kept riding after freestyle died off and it wasn't as popular.  I do remember the days where guys would ride un-sponsored and rode with dreads and mix matched branded bikes and had the anything goes attitude.  Craig Grasso and Pete Augustin come to mind late 80's.  89 or 90 was when a ton of guys went out and rode for the love and not money and didn't care about sponsorships.  Meet the Street and other hardcore events packed with unsponsored guys ripping it up.


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#178 2017-01-06 11:15am

made2drag
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Re: Is there any bike company better than S&M?

but yea, S&M and Standard were top dogs then and now.


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#179 2017-01-06 4:47pm

Mattybmx
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From: Seattle WA
Registered: 2012-09-12
Posts: 321
Bikes: 5

Re: Is there any bike company better than S&M?

it was weird times for sure. GT (the Firm) owned Robinson, Powerlite, Dyno, Auburn and had done a great job monopolizing the market but were run for the most part by suits and ties and we're all straight edge ABA racer crew and were all by-the-book. Had Greg Hill search Mr T's bag and dropped him for having a doobie, but kept Sheepdog (who from what I heard was indulging, but maybe cause of color??)..Haro sold out to West Coast Cycle and then merged with Derby Cycle Corp (Raleigh/Huffy) and again the suits there didn't know/understand bmx and they bailed and sold it to Kenstone (kenda) and Jim Ford/Joe Hawk for like $100k ( i know, i worked there)..then the X Games came up and Mirra (rip) and Nyquist made Haro into the name they are today. So tuff to compare S&M to Haro as really, Bob bailed..Just like R.L. Too bad, Bully had gone from Straight edge to Street/punk and had the ball rolling.. the graphics and image to do it..shoulda coulda woulda..also tough to compare Standard or FBM to S&M as really, the cash cow is FIT.

Moeller basically looked at Thrasher Mag and said f-this.. bmx is more than moto sheets and ABA belt buckles and organized stickers on numberplates and did a great job bridging bmx to what skateboarding was and is. BSR (bicycle soul riding). Wearing numberplates and Aero leathers to jump ramps, ride street and do flatland?!? come on!  Real riders wear cuttoffs and T's..Went to Taiwan and went after Haro, Schwinn, Hoffman, and who ever else was left with Fit and the rest is history..

Last edited by Mattybmx (2017-01-06 4:50pm)

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#180 2017-01-06 4:52pm

FatGuy
Pro MemberNot Big Boned
From: Woodstock, GA
Registered: 2009-03-27
Posts: 3326
Bikes: 2
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Re: Is there any bike company better than S&M?

Great posts today.  cool


FatGuy
....happy to answer your Porkchop BMX questions.

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#181 2017-01-06 5:39pm

made2drag
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From: USA
Registered: 2012-03-15
Posts: 8222
Bikes: 8

Re: Is there any bike company better than S&M?

awesome post Matty!  True for sure smile


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#182 2017-01-06 6:07pm

pelt
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From: Italy
Registered: 2008-09-17
Posts: 1405
For Sale: 5

Re: Is there any bike company better than S&M?

Gotta love industry insiders!


Wanted:
RNC brake lever, bolts and bar ends
Cinelli CMX frame

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#183 2017-01-07 11:13am

capt.shred
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From: Flagstaff, AZ
Registered: 2006-04-28
Posts: 1677
Bikes: 37
For Sale: 3

Re: Is there any bike company better than S&M?

Mattybmx wrote:

it was weird times for sure. GT (the Firm) owned Robinson, Powerlite, Dyno, Auburn and had done a great job monopolizing the market but were run for the most part by suits and ties and we're all straight edge ABA racer crew and were all by-the-book. Had Greg Hill search Mr T's bag and dropped him for having a doobie, but kept Sheepdog (who from what I heard was indulging, but maybe cause of color??)..Haro sold out to West Coast Cycle and then merged with Derby Cycle Corp (Raleigh/Huffy) and again the suits there didn't know/understand bmx and they bailed and sold it to Kenstone (kenda) and Jim Ford/Joe Hawk for like $100k ( i know, i worked there)..then the X Games came up and Mirra (rip) and Nyquist made Haro into the name they are today. So tuff to compare S&M to Haro as really, Bob bailed..Just like R.L. Too bad, Bully had gone from Straight edge to Street/punk and had the ball rolling.. the graphics and image to do it..shoulda coulda woulda..also tough to compare Standard or FBM to S&M as really, the cash cow is FIT.

Moeller basically looked at Thrasher Mag and said f-this.. bmx is more than moto sheets and ABA belt buckles and organized stickers on numberplates and did a great job bridging bmx to what skateboarding was and is. BSR (bicycle soul riding). Wearing numberplates and Aero leathers to jump ramps, ride street and do flatland?!? come on!  Real riders wear cuttoffs and T's..Went to Taiwan and went after Haro, Schwinn, Hoffman, and who ever else was left with Fit and the rest is history..

For sure!  History repeats itself.  Just like motocross, the Godfather of BMX,  it did the exact thing then BMX followed suit.  There's a great documentary called "Unchained" about the evolution of motocross to x game freedom riders.  A must see really.  It aint BMX, but has many parallels.

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#184 2017-03-15 10:09pm

pharv85
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From: Vacaville, CA
Registered: 2010-12-31
Posts: 1446
Bikes: 21
Website

Re: Is there any bike company better than S&M?

S&M is an amazing company (I've ridden S&M frames basically my entire life), but if you ride hard and want a custom "signature" frame with your own geometry and personalized seat stay bridge, get a Lairdframe.

All Lairdframes are hand-made in America by Pro BMXer Mike Laird with U.S.-made tubing.  Mike only welds up to 12 frames per month, so nothing's mass produced and he puts his full attention into each and every frame.  In addition to the buyer-designed seat stay bridge, you can choose a bottle-opener style chain stay bridge cool .

p.s., I recently ordered a titanium Lairdframe and a matching fork smile .

Lairdframe info: http://bmxmuseum.com/reference/4627

http://uploads.bmxmuseum.com/user-images/55510/lairdframe58ca1d2eae.jpg


Wanted:   175mm chrome Profile DJ crank arms;    3rd Gen. Profile Gas pedals;    2000 GT UltraBox chain tensioners;   20" HED carbon fiber rim (36H or 28H)

I have several mid-school BMX catalogs and magazines on my Issuu Page  -------->  issuu.com/pharv85/docs
Check out some parts that I've researched and learn something new:  http://bmxmuseum.com/reference/user/55510/

I love riding trails!  Here are some brands that I endorse.
[img]http://uploads.bmxmuseum.com/user-images/55510/logo_signature_58a1697307.jpg[/img]

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#185 2019-02-01 3:47pm

dick butkas
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From: New England
Registered: 2014-11-02
Posts: 28
Bikes: 1
For Sale: 4

Re: Is there any bike company better than S&M?

S&M BEN wrote:

I have ridden mainly S&M's and 6 or 7 Standards and FBM recently, I just bought a new 2017 Wethepeople Patrol trail frame and I have to say it went together easier and smoother than most of those.  I have had issues with bearings fitting in bb shells and things not welded up perfectly square on US frames and the Patrol frame is flawless, I was skeptical to buy it but it had the geometry I wanted just like the FBM steadfast which I have already had but I wanted the built in tensioners and this was the only high end frame with all the specs and I could not be happier!  I love S&M, Standard and FBM but they don't make any trail geometry frame with built in tensioners which as far as I am concerned all bikes should.

Where are the WTPs made?

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#186 2019-02-01 5:04pm

S&M BEN
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From: NE
Registered: 2009-10-10
Posts: 1736
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Re: Is there any bike company better than S&M?

They are made in Taiwan but nice, S&M is starting to integrate chain tensioners now Standard and FBM need to follow!  I’m not saying WTP is better just saying the frame I got was spot on and everything fit smooth and that’s coming from a bike mechanic!


WTB: S&M Redneck xlt stem charcoal and gold and blue
WTB: S&M Purple Enduro V2 53 or 55
WTB: Credence rootbeer brown stem
WTB: Orange S&M Tuffman sprocket, xlt seatclamp nickel, blue! Bar tabs"ends" in blue and nickel, green
S&M dx pedals.
WTB: PL-20 Carrera vinyl toptube pad.

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#187 2019-02-01 7:36pm

capt.shred
Pro Member
From: Flagstaff, AZ
Registered: 2006-04-28
Posts: 1677
Bikes: 37
For Sale: 3

Re: Is there any bike company better than S&M?

S&M BEN wrote:

They are made in Taiwan but nice, S&M is starting to integrate chain tensioners now Standard and FBM need to follow!  I’m not saying WTP is better just saying the frame I got was spot on and everything fit smooth and that’s coming from a bike mechanic!

I have a WTP 24” Atlas.  It’s stunning.

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#188 2019-02-01 7:40pm

brettweir89
Pro MemberROA DAE O
From: NW Indiana
Registered: 2013-08-26
Posts: 2175
Bikes: 2
For Sale: 3

Re: Is there any bike company better than S&M?

IMHO the original question posed by this thread is pointless. We are all going to have our valid and different opinions. That's what makes the world go 'round.

I give Bill Ryan @ Supercross my business. Why?

Let's look at value for dollar. Right now, you can go to the SK site, buy a rare 1 of 100 sx450 chromoly race frameset, made of Tange Prestige steel, well under 4lb. (lightest steel race frame you can buy), also with integrated chain tensioners and top notch build quality. For $379. Well under what the S&M Steel Panther and Standard 125r cost (and no integrated tensioners on the Standard). Not knocking those other frames at all (they are both great) but the SK is a better value by empirical evidence (less expensive, better steel, lighter, same or better features).

Well more important to me (above the value for my hard earned money), I recently got a call during dinner from Bill. Yep, the phone rang, call from CA (thought it was the regional safety manager for my company calling me) and the founder/owner was calling me personally to talk about an email/pictures I had sent him that afternoon about a SK frame I purchased which I suspected may have been a prototype.
So, Bill called me and we talked for almost 45 minutes, about the entire history of that prototype frame, his company, the industry, our families, music, and how much he loves what he does, every single day for 30 years. I already was a loyal SK customer before that, but that was an amazing life experience and that shows what kind of Man runs SK. I wonder how many other owners/founders of BMX companies would care enough to do that?

Your mileage may vary. That's my story.

http://uploads.bmxmuseum.com/user-images/199820/img_01845c55159f13.jpg

Last edited by brettweir89 (2019-02-01 9:18pm)


So long as the paperwork is clean, you boys can do what you like out there. -Fifi McAffee (MFP)
Hey Fella! You're a turkey! -Jim Goose (MFP)

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#189 2019-02-01 9:10pm

hboost
Pro Member
From: Lynwood, CA
Registered: 2008-01-21
Posts: 4251
Bikes: 13
For Sale: 4

Re: Is there any bike company better than S&M?

Whoa that SX is sexy.


Check out my Want to Buy posts.

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#190 2019-02-01 9:18pm

brettweir89
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From: NW Indiana
Registered: 2013-08-26
Posts: 2175
Bikes: 2
For Sale: 3

Re: Is there any bike company better than S&M?

hboost wrote:

Whoa that SX is sexy.

It's 1 of 3 prototypes made. Next to my children this is the most precious thing I now have.


So long as the paperwork is clean, you boys can do what you like out there. -Fifi McAffee (MFP)
Hey Fella! You're a turkey! -Jim Goose (MFP)

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#191 2019-02-02 1:11am

IPD
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From: Dangerous independent thinking
Registered: 2011-08-13
Posts: 10951
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For Sale: 2
Website

Re: Is there any bike company better than S&M?

pharv85 wrote:

S&M is an amazing company (I've ridden S&M frames basically my entire life), but if you ride hard and want a custom "signature" frame with your own geometry and personalized seat stay bridge, get a Lairdframe.

All Lairdframes are hand-made in America by Pro BMXer Mike Laird with U.S.-made tubing.  Mike only welds up to 12 frames per month, so nothing's mass produced and he puts his full attention into each and every frame.  In addition to the buyer-designed seat stay bridge, you can choose a bottle-opener style chain stay bridge cool .

p.s., I recently ordered a titanium Lairdframe and a matching fork smile .

Lairdframe info: http://bmxmuseum.com/reference/4627

http://uploads.bmxmuseum.com/user-image … 1d2eae.jpg

That is a lovely frame.


It's like the man says, there's no problems...only solutions.

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#192 2019-02-02 6:40pm

made2drag
Pro Member
From: USA
Registered: 2012-03-15
Posts: 8222
Bikes: 8

Re: Is there any bike company better than S&M?

IPD wrote:

pharv85 wrote:

S&M is an amazing company (I've ridden S&M frames basically my entire life), but if you ride hard and want a custom "signature" frame with your own geometry and personalized seat stay bridge, get a Lairdframe.

All Lairdframes are hand-made in America by Pro BMXer Mike Laird with U.S.-made tubing.  Mike only welds up to 12 frames per month, so nothing's mass produced and he puts his full attention into each and every frame.  In addition to the buyer-designed seat stay bridge, you can choose a bottle-opener style chain stay bridge cool .

p.s., I recently ordered a titanium Lairdframe and a matching fork smile .

Lairdframe info: http://bmxmuseum.com/reference/4627

http://uploads.bmxmuseum.com/user-image … 1d2eae.jpg

That is a lovely frame.

+1


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#193 2019-02-03 6:48am

JS-44SDS
Pro MemberProfile Ultimate Pro
From: NJersey
Registered: 2008-01-27
Posts: 12897
Bikes: 4

Re: Is there any bike company better than S&M?

brettweir89 wrote:

hboost wrote:

Whoa that SX is sexy.

It's 1 of 3 prototypes made. Next to my children this is the most precious thing I now have.

Are you married?


LOL Pathetic is having to get a new account because you are afraid of your wife...  Your turn kitten balls ????

If you are OK with your actions why the concerted effort to hide what happened?

Don't screw over those you tell your secrets...its not talkin shit if it's TRUE.

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#194 2019-02-03 8:13am

Stingray77
Member
From: East coast
Registered: 2016-02-14
Posts: 60
Bikes: 2

Re: Is there any bike company better than S&M?

I had a Solid euro killing machine with a crookedly welded rear end.
Rode it anyway.

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#195 2019-02-03 9:14am

spyker
Pro MemberPimp In Training
From: Havelock NC
Registered: 2009-11-19
Posts: 25122

Re: Is there any bike company better than S&M?

JS-44SDS wrote:

brettweir89 wrote:

hboost wrote:

Whoa that SX is sexy.

It's 1 of 3 prototypes made. Next to my children this is the most precious thing I now have.

Are you married?

Wives are not important....throw them in the gutter and go get another.


Made In Taiwan #1.....You Have Chosen Wisely!  Guaranteed Strength
Would you trust a fat ugly lazy drunk to weld up a frame that will be ridden hard?
$20 is $20!

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#196 2019-02-03 10:08am

brettweir89
Pro MemberROA DAE O
From: NW Indiana
Registered: 2013-08-26
Posts: 2175
Bikes: 2
For Sale: 3

Re: Is there any bike company better than S&M?

spyker wrote:

JS-44SDS wrote:

brettweir89 wrote:


It's 1 of 3 prototypes made. Next to my children this is the most precious thing I now have.

Are you married?

Wives are not important....throw them in the gutter and go get another.

Twice divorced. Both children with 2nd wife. Divorced since April 2015. Life is peaceful and happy.


So long as the paperwork is clean, you boys can do what you like out there. -Fifi McAffee (MFP)
Hey Fella! You're a turkey! -Jim Goose (MFP)

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#197 2019-04-06 11:59pm

pharv85
Reference Guru
From: Vacaville, CA
Registered: 2010-12-31
Posts: 1446
Bikes: 21
Website

Re: Is there any bike company better than S&M?

I may be a little bias, but Mike Laird makes great frames!  I'm building new disc-brake compatible wheels soon, but here's how my ride currently sits cool .

http://uploads.bmxmuseum.com/user-images/55510/ti-lairdframe_pharv85_20181117_5ca99f8c67.jpg


Wanted:   175mm chrome Profile DJ crank arms;    3rd Gen. Profile Gas pedals;    2000 GT UltraBox chain tensioners;   20" HED carbon fiber rim (36H or 28H)

I have several mid-school BMX catalogs and magazines on my Issuu Page  -------->  issuu.com/pharv85/docs
Check out some parts that I've researched and learn something new:  http://bmxmuseum.com/reference/user/55510/

I love riding trails!  Here are some brands that I endorse.
[img]http://uploads.bmxmuseum.com/user-images/55510/logo_signature_58a1697307.jpg[/img]

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#198 2019-04-07 9:44am

spyker
Pro MemberPimp In Training
From: Havelock NC
Registered: 2009-11-19
Posts: 25122

Re: Is there any bike company better than S&M?

The important question should be,who is the best bike company currently right now!


Made In Taiwan #1.....You Have Chosen Wisely!  Guaranteed Strength
Would you trust a fat ugly lazy drunk to weld up a frame that will be ridden hard?
$20 is $20!

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#199 2019-04-07 10:08am

brettweir89
Pro MemberROA DAE O
From: NW Indiana
Registered: 2013-08-26
Posts: 2175
Bikes: 2
For Sale: 3

Re: Is there any bike company better than S&M?

From a purely financial standpoint, Giant is the largest bicycle manufacturer in the World

I don't think it would be possible to quantify "best" which is why I disagree with the point of this thread that S&M is the "best" even though I would not debate they make high quality items no doubt.

Last edited by brettweir89 (2019-04-07 10:09am)


So long as the paperwork is clean, you boys can do what you like out there. -Fifi McAffee (MFP)
Hey Fella! You're a turkey! -Jim Goose (MFP)

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