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Found out a mystery bike it took almost year  RSS Feed

#51 2017-11-29 6:28pm

petersjunk2010
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Re: Found out a mystery bike it took almost year

I believe the frame at least is chrome Molly from what I can remember of it judging from the thickness of the seat tube. Fork no clue lol

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#52 2017-11-29 6:43pm

notslo
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Re: Found out a mystery bike it took almost year

Maiden DB fan wrote:

its-all-good wrote:

Looks like a Sekai Superhawk or Skybird .
They both were high end full 4130 cr-mo frames.

The red one you pictured. Was MY frame that I sold. It was the lowest end Sekai made at the time Challenger . The Challenger was a Mild Steel/Hi-Ten frame.
Not a good comparison at all.

Just a question for clarification: Were Sekai or Gurney frames made with ChroMo tubing during the Year in question? The wall thickness will tell as CM is thinner(but stronger) than Mild Steel. Know this from Fabrication of Drag Car Roll Cages. They need to be in spec when Certified for use on Tracks(NHRA for example) a check of the tubing thickness would tell what type Tubing used. May not matter either way.

I just scored a 1981 one-off Hutch made from leftover chromo tubing from Don Prudhomme's dragster. I know this because I ran into the hotdog vendor from the Nationals the year that The Snake had his retinas detached from pulling the chute on his last pass. The hotdog vendor told me straight up that the tubing on my bike was a perfect match compared Don's tubing. Only his was painted black and mine was polished.

He's still 100% sure that mine is legit though.

For real.


Chasing (Loop) tail since 1984

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#53 2017-11-29 7:10pm

arata82
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Re: Found out a mystery bike it took almost year

To add to sekai didnt even make bike in 77 started 79 early 80 1st bmx whick doent match none
http://uploads.bmxmuseum.com/user-images/53115/screenshot_20171129-1908175a1f76a89e.png


looking for 16 skyways,white jr seat,haro forks 82-84,and more stuff for hight freestlye bike pm me have lots to trade or might have cash

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#54 2017-11-29 7:10pm

Maiden DB fan
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Re: Found out a mystery bike it took almost year

notslo wrote:

Maiden DB fan wrote:

its-all-good wrote:

Looks like a Sekai Superhawk or Skybird .
They both were high end full 4130 cr-mo frames.

The red one you pictured. Was MY frame that I sold. It was the lowest end Sekai made at the time Challenger . The Challenger was a Mild Steel/Hi-Ten frame.
Not a good comparison at all.

Just a question for clarification: Were Sekai or Gurney frames made with ChroMo tubing during the Year in question? The wall thickness will tell as CM is thinner(but stronger) than Mild Steel. Know this from Fabrication of Drag Car Roll Cages. They need to be in spec when Certified for use on Tracks(NHRA for example) a check of the tubing thickness would tell what type Tubing used. May not matter either way.

I just scored a 1981 one-off Hutch made from leftover chromo tubing from Don Prudhomme's dragster. I know this because I ran into the hotdog vendor from the Nationals the year that The Snake had his retinas detached from pulling the chute on his last pass. The hotdog vendor told me straight up that the tubing on my bike was a perfect match compared Don's tubing. Only his was painted black and mine was polished.

He's still 100% sure that mine is legit though.

For real.

Wanna see a pic of Wall thickness posted or it didn't happen. yikes How about the Gate Ticket taker or Trash can dumper dude? They were there too!

Last edited by Maiden DB fan (2017-11-29 7:13pm)

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#55 2017-11-29 7:26pm

farmboy
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Re: Found out a mystery bike it took almost year

arata82 wrote:

Notba superhark or a skybird ,a superbird i the gray bike in the examples i did still butter welds and way different then the frane i have

Still no proff to be a sekai shit what next is a magna  lol  you guys have to be joking cant be that blind

Shit if you a going it sekai because it looks like
Webco and fugi have closer models that look more like the frame gurney had most to look like and make more sence do to the design and welds and small thing's like brake tap and single gusset that was on a different  bike not even saying anying about the pm from mike Murphy , there a single gusset sq back and a looptail on bmxmusem of the gurney count this one that 3 frames that were made different as mike said many similar to this one was made which  make sence with though other 2 which gave been proved to be gurneys

O.M.G. dude. I'll trade you my frame for an 1/8th oz of whatever you're smoking.

Nothing, not a single part, of the frames you compared is identical. Look at your pics on something other than a phone. My laptop screen is like 13" and I can tell the difference.

Your pics.

http://uploads.bmxmuseum.com/user-images/42705/match15a1e4396065a1f750438.jpg

-Radii of seat/chain stays at drops, larger on your frame
-Drops larger on your frame
-Pillbox longer on your frame
-Oh, and the brake bridge is CLEARLY FURTHER BACK on the Gurney. Look at it relative to where the chain stays are welded to the pillbox. Directly above on your frame, further back on the Gurney. Probably actually functional, even.


http://uploads.bmxmuseum.com/user-images/42705/match35a1e4396055a1f7592d8.jpg

- Closeup of pillboxes (which are a feature on, what, at least 50 other frames? At least.) Different length and thickness.

http://uploads.bmxmuseum.com/user-images/42705/match45a1e4470325a1f75c2f0.jpg

- Closeup of gussets. Not identical. The curve at the rear of the one on your bike is symmetrical, i.e., it's an even curve relative to where it ends at the tt/dt. the Gurney is slightly asymmetrical, a little bit longer on top than the bottom. And, similar to like 8 billion other ones. Powerlite. Mongoose. Torker. Cook Brothers. Gurney. Others. Gusset with a round friggin hole. Revolutionary.

BUT BUT BUT they're similar. Yeah, whoopee, so are about 30 or so other frames.

BUT BUT BUT some guy pm'ed me. lol

You know what? Even though your frame and mine are identical, I'm pretty sure mine is actually a CW Phase 1 prototype. 

http://uploads.bmxmuseum.com/user-images/42705/img_55975a1f76a98a.jpg

http://uploads.bmxmuseum.com/user-images/42705/dsc00630_lg5a1f76b6d2.jpg

See? They're both chrome, with no stickers, plus they have tubes, and drops, etc, etc.

But here's the kicker.

http://uploads.bmxmuseum.com/user-images/42705/img_56015a1f76f6ae.jpg

http://uploads.bmxmuseum.com/user-images/42705/dsc00631_copy0_lg5a1f7704d1.jpg

They both have chromo tube stickers! In a similar location! Eureka! Now, all I need is someone to send me a pm telling me I'm correct.

Don't even tell me I'm wrong, I'm using pretty much the same logic as you. That's my proff.

I'll just wait here for that pm. Doesn't matter who it is, someone, anyone, help me out here. It's a CW Phase 1 prototype, waiting for the sledge.

roll

Alternative facts. One of the real problems with our society.


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#56 2017-11-29 7:33pm

arata82
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Re: Found out a mystery bike it took almost year

You seril number guess is wrong also
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vint … st13167348


looking for 16 skyways,white jr seat,haro forks 82-84,and more stuff for hight freestlye bike pm me have lots to trade or might have cash

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#57 2017-11-29 7:34pm

arata82
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Re: Found out a mystery bike it took almost year

In 1977 sekai was sold  and moved and didnt make bmx frame intill sold a again in 79 then failed and bought by norco in 1983


looking for 16 skyways,white jr seat,haro forks 82-84,and more stuff for hight freestlye bike pm me have lots to trade or might have cash

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#58 2017-11-29 8:30pm

farmboy
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Re: Found out a mystery bike it took almost year

arata82 wrote:

You seril number guess is wrong also
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vint … st13167348

Wrong again. Post #11 (as I said twice previously).

3rd, 4th, and 5th bikes listed all have the same serial format, except with 4 numbers at the end instead of 3. Yet again, possibly because they sold more road bikes (thousands) than bmx bikes (hundreds).

And again, I've always said I'M PRETTY SURE it's a Sekai. Not, IT'S DEFINITELY A SEKAI. I will go on the record with IT'S MOST LIKELY, ALMOST DEFINITELY, NOT A GURNEY/LITTLEJOHN/MURPHY.

BTW, in your research, did you find the DOCUMENTED, with PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE, L&M bikes? As in, Littlejohn & Murphy? Bikes that people are aware of, unlike ours?


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#59 2017-11-29 8:34pm

farmboy
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Re: Found out a mystery bike it took almost year

arata82 wrote:

In 1977 sekai was sold  and moved and didnt make bmx frame intill sold a again in 79 then failed and bought by norco in 1983

Gee, and ours are both stamped 77. So what does the above statement mean? Did it occur to you that perhaps the reason our frames are made to a higher spec is because that is what the original owners wanted vs. the subsequent ones? Happens all the time, companies change hands and quality is different, sometimes better, often worse. Your points work both ways.

It's cold here. I admit, I'd rather do this, on the couch, than much else. winter activity, so to speak.


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#60 2017-11-29 8:55pm

farmboy
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Re: Found out a mystery bike it took almost year

M & L. Murphy & Littlejohn. 1974. Very dissimilar from our bikes.

http://www.bmxsociety.com/topic/52513-m … -revealed/

Gary Littlejohn Murphy. 1975. Very dissimilar from our bikes.

http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=43368

According to your PM from Mike Murphy, his dad made our frames BEFORE  he made Littlejohns. Below is a quote from Gary Littlejohn about the partnership. He only mentions that Murphy made motorcycle bars. More importantly, though, we have Littlejohn Murphys on the museum from BEFORE '77. The dates DON'T CORROBORATE THE INFO IN YOUR PM. Or I guess that the 77 means something other than '77. Oh, that's right, Mike Murphy says the bike is a '77 in the same pm. So which is it??

From this interview with Gary Littlejohn:  http://www.utahbmx.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=594

"VintageBMX.com: What was Littlejohn Murphy Inc.?

GL: Shortly after I started building the BMX frames I went into a partnership with Bill Murphy. He owned a shop that manufactured motorcycle handlebars. He owned a computerized tubing bender which would help in building the BMX frames. He did not have much interest in the BMX business and the partnership was ended after a short time. "

He didn't have much interest in the BMX business, but he whipped out a few hundred or so of our frames. (In a wormhole or some other time paradox, apparently. See below.)

I'm not going to mention names or brands, but I have read numerous quotes from the son of one of the original major brand owners from BITD which are just dead wrong. These guys were little kids, 40 years ago, who were mostly riding what their dad's were building. They weren't necessarily integral members or employees of the company. maybe some were, but not all. And, this was 40 YEARS AGO. Their memories may not be the greatest. Again, right in your pm, Mike Murphy says yes, yours is a '77, my dad made them BEFORE he made Littlejohns. Newsflash, '74/'75 came BEFORE '77. So, how does THAT work??

Last edited by farmboy (2017-11-30 12:18am)


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#61 2017-11-29 9:08pm

arata82
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Re: Found out a mystery bike it took almost year

Littlejohn/ murphy  was partner of gary littlejohn  and peter Murphy  not bill ,bill can in 77 after gurney went under in 76 there pages in bmx mags about that which is the right period ti build a bmx for his son and team to race before going to littlejohn make lots a sence bill made lot of side hack bmx and mist likly thr reason around the single gusset to mount the side hack better,bill murphy welded for other companys as well mongoisr,redline,gurney,littlejohn etc which most of the same style as in sq backs,redline and gurney,the hole in a single gusset redline gurney  as well ,the solid brick with the weep hole in back ,mongoose,gurney,redlineand littlejohn all have which none of the sekai have


looking for 16 skyways,white jr seat,haro forks 82-84,and more stuff for hight freestlye bike pm me have lots to trade or might have cash

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#62 2017-11-29 9:11pm

daddy-o
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Re: Found out a mystery bike it took almost year

Does this thread come with a coupon for free popcorn?

So from what I have seen the original thread title says that it took "ALMOST YEAR" to figure this one out.

However:

• the bike was posted in April of 2017 and sold to arata82 sometime after that (less than a year ago)

• the facebook photo from arata82 in the first post of this was from May, so maybe a month later it was figured out?

I have no idea what it is (leaning towards Sekai), but I don't doubt that the Facebook poster believes it is a Murphy made frame. However, if you show this thread to him he more than likely would say that they did build something similar, but this is not likely it now that he sees all of this evidence.

I think arata82 believes Murphy based on what he said (which is reasonable), but I would encourage him to send Murphy a link to this and all of the evidence suggesting Sekai to see what Murphy says after reading this. Could not hurt right?

Here are some old stickers I found...lolhttp://uploads.bmxmuseum.com/user-images/12937/murphy-to-trash5a1f92f042.jpeg

Last edited by daddy-o (2017-11-29 9:12pm)

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#63 2017-11-29 9:13pm

farmboy
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Re: Found out a mystery bike it took almost year

arata82 wrote:

Littlejohn/ murphy  was partner of gary littlejohn  and peter Murphy  not bill ,bill can in 77 after gurney went under in 76 there pages in bmx mags about that which is the right period ti build a bmx for his son and team to race before going to littlejohn make lots a sence bill made lot of side hack bmx and mist likly thr reason around the single gusset to mount the side hack better,bill murphy welded for other companys as well mongoisr,redline,gurney,littlejohn etc which most of the same style as in sq backs,redline and gurney,the hole in a single gusset redline gurney  as well ,the solid brick with the weep hole in back ,mongoose,gurney,redlineand littlejohn all have which none of the sekai have

http://www.bmxsociety.com/topic/59535-b … ssed-away/

First post in the thread:

"BMX Pioneer Bill Murphy has passed away. His memorial was Sunday, July 19th 2015.
It goes without saying that Bill was amongst the first BMX product innovators.
Team Members - Mike Shannon Michael Murphy, Thad Hall, John Kitchen, Robert Flares and more.
Please share you're Bill Murphy and LittleJohn Murphy Stories.
Thank you Bill's son Michael Murphy for letting us know about Bill's passing."

Mike was Bill's son. Littlejohn Murphy is clearly mentioned, right above, right next to the name Bill Murphy.

Now check the M&L link above. It clearly states the M&L was BILL MURPHY and Littlejohn. In 1974. Who is Peter Murphy? Why did the interview in the other link only ask about Bill?

(Edit: pretty sure after a few more searches that Bill Murphy is Peter Murphy, as in William Peter, or vice versa. Numerous sources list a partnership between GL and Bill and/or Peter from '73 - '75.)

Dude, I just don't think there's any chance your theory is correct.

Last edited by farmboy (2017-11-29 9:38pm)


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#64 2017-11-29 9:52pm

farmboy
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Re: Found out a mystery bike it took almost year

daddy-o wrote:

Does this thread come with a coupon for free popcorn?

So from what I have seen the original thread title says that it took "ALMOST YEAR" to figure this one out.

However:

• the bike was posted in April of 2017 and sold to arata82 sometime after that (less than a year ago)

• the facebook photo from arata82 in the first post of this was from May, so maybe a month later it was figured out?

I have no idea what it is (leaning towards Sekai), but I don't doubt that the Facebook poster believes it is a Murphy made frame. However, if you show this thread to him he more than likely would say that they did build something similar, but this is not likely it now that he sees all of this evidence.

I think arata82 believes Murphy based on what he said (which is reasonable), but I would encourage him to send Murphy a link to this and all of the evidence suggesting Sekai to see what Murphy says after reading this. Could not hurt right?

Here are some old stickers I found...lolhttp://uploads.bmxmuseum.com/user-image … 2f042.jpeg

How do you know the Facebook photo was from May? Did you see it back then? Can't tell from where it's posted in this thread.

Edit: I see it now. The first response was May 12. It looks like Mike Murphy responded more recently, perhaps 30 minutes before arata started this thread seeing as he posts from his phone.

Last edited by farmboy (2017-11-29 9:56pm)


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#65 2017-11-29 9:58pm

daddy-o
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Re: Found out a mystery bike it took almost year

You are right- Miles Gleason replied on Facebook in May. My bad...

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#66 2017-11-29 10:54pm

daddy-o
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Re: Found out a mystery bike it took almost year

Miles responded in May-

Murphy on 11/16. So, he did find out recently, still not close to a year later, but whatever. As he said, Murphy confirmed it, which makes it believable, but Murphy could have made an honest mistake as a lot of stuff looks alike for those days.

http://uploads.bmxmuseum.com/user-images/12937/img_24295a1fab1ca2.png

Last edited by daddy-o (2017-11-29 10:55pm)

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#67 2017-11-30 4:48am

fouts14
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Re: Found out a mystery bike it took almost year

dan77 wrote:

I like all of this research.

+1
Seems like all the information available on the net for this has been exhausted. My opinion doesn't mean Jack, but Sekai does seem the more plausible.

As a side note, if I had to read a thread where arata82 and freestyle freek were both posting, my head would explode


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#68 2017-11-30 5:14am

arata82
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Re: Found out a mystery bike it took almost year

So a guess on a match serial  numbers of a road bike make sence over  a comform from a family member that the bike was made for and looks and make sence of matching the frame to weld and style of the bike

Facts sekai didnt even have a bmx line intill 2 years after this frame was made


looking for 16 skyways,white jr seat,haro forks 82-84,and more stuff for hight freestlye bike pm me have lots to trade or might have cash

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#69 2017-11-30 5:58am

notslo
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Re: Found out a mystery bike it took almost year

This is entertaining but exhausting at the same time.


Chasing (Loop) tail since 1984

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#70 2017-11-30 6:13am

daddy-o
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Re: Found out a mystery bike it took almost year

The family member's word means something for sure. However, I would ask him to read this post and that would allow him to look more carefully at all of the info presented here. Maybe he will say that it still is a frame his dad made, it's not, or he can't tell.

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#71 2017-11-30 6:15am

AlurencatBMX
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Re: Found out a mystery bike it took almost year

farmboy wrote:

4. Very early brakeless freestyle frame prototype

Has a coaster mount. I know you yanks are nuts about your coasters. They didn't really catch on in the UK, but it's not brakeless. Shame some one drilled the hole really, but hey it's history I guess smile

And then I scrolled down and saw some one else spotted it too smile

daddy-o wrote:

The family member's word means something for sure. However, I would ask him to read this post and that would allow him to look more carefully at all of the info presented here. Maybe he will say that it still is a frame his dad made, it's not, or he can't tell.

Does any one know his age? he might have even been a twinkle in his dad's eye when this was made.

Last edited by AlurencatBMX (2017-11-30 6:17am)


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#72 2017-11-30 6:56am

arata82
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Re: Found out a mystery bike it took almost year

I just  friend him mike on Facebook so waiting on a reply

Last edited by arata82 (2017-11-30 7:10am)


looking for 16 skyways,white jr seat,haro forks 82-84,and more stuff for hight freestlye bike pm me have lots to trade or might have cash

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#73 2017-11-30 7:01am

Maiden DB fan
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Re: Found out a mystery bike it took almost year

fouts14 wrote:

dan77 wrote:

I like all of this research.

+1
Seems like all the information available on the net for this has been exhausted. My opinion doesn't mean Jack, but Sekai does seem the more plausible.

As a side note, if I had to read a thread where arata82 and freestyle freek were both posting, my head would explode

IPD can orchestrate some Doozies!
What we have here is an impasse on the subject at hand. Two individuals have feelings about the Frame with evidence to support their views. Whether either one is Right or not-there hasn't been enough Hard evidence to dismiss nor verify each position. This is not a Unique situation. The Davinci Painting that just Sold at Auction was in the Same questionability at one time. Is it Real? Only those willing to Pay what It COULD BE worth,can substantiate it's lineage.  At that point it doesn't matter it's True provenience. It's where it's at NOW with what has been provided. Further evidence may Prove either Case-or may not!

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#74 2017-11-30 11:07am

farmboy
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Re: Found out a mystery bike it took almost year

arata82 wrote:

So a guess on a match serial  numbers of a road bike make sence over  a comform from a family member that the bike was made for and looks and make sence of matching the frame to weld and style of the bike

Facts sekai didnt even have a bmx line intill 2 years after this frame was made

The serial similarity is not definitive in any way. However, it is a plausible possibility worth exploring.

If you want to find the real answer to something, you have to explore all the plausible possibilities.

Visible similarity without exact matching of specification is not definitive. Nor is an unsubstantiated comment from someone, no matter who they are. And, like I pointed out, the time sequence implied in Mike Murphy's statement does not jibe with what he, you and I have accepted as a year of manufacture, 1977.

Having said that, I've received 2 replies to inquiries so far. Neither support this frame being a Sekai. However, it still does not mean it isn't a Sekai. It only means that we still don't know WHAT it is.

This is a reply I got this morning from Yellow Jersey, originally based in Madison, WI, one of the 4 original main distributors for Sekai for the duration of their existence:

http://uploads.bmxmuseum.com/user-images/42705/img_56095a20516969.png

So, no confirmation there. One possibility exhausted.

Now, from the Sekai database at bike forums.net, where I joined and posted an inquiry, post #386:

http://uploads.bmxmuseum.com/user-images/42705/screen-shot-2017-11-30-at-12.47.26-pm5a205278a9.png

Another strikeout. However, still nothing definitive. The poster says "it doesn't appear..." not "It's not a..."

On the other hand, he says he has a catalog which he believes is a 1978 which shows 2 bmx models, albeit models which are notably different from ours. So, while this does nothing to support this being a Sekai, it does indicate the possibility that Sekai made BMX frames before '79, which refutes your claim. Is it definitive? No. It's merely another possibility. (I did ask if he could post images from the catalog. Interesting that the frames would be so different from later, known Sekais.)

See, that's how it works. Exhaust every possibility in search of verifiable facts. Similarities to other frames, conjecture, and unsubstantiated statements (with conflicting elements) are not verifiable facts.

I don't know if it's a damned Sekai, I'm not claiming it's a Sekai, I just think it's more likely than it being a Murphy product. I can't and won't say its anything until I have PROOF. The same rules apply to you; you have no PROOF that it's a Murphy. Maybe Mike will reply with a picture of him on this frame in 15 minutes and the matter will be settled, but until then all we know is what we know for certain, which is that we still don't know wtf this frame is.

I have one more inquiry out to the bike shop still owned by the Family which founded Sekai. That's the end of the road for active inquiries about it being a Sekai as far as I can tell. The burden of proof for it being a Murphy is on you. So far, neither of us has found out anything for certain.


Self Appointed Assistant Associate Treasurer of the 44t Fan Booster Club, Western Division.

Movin' to the country, gonna eat a lot of peaches. On and on, 'til the break of dawn.

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#75 2017-11-30 12:13pm

arata82
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From: San Jose, CA
Registered: 2010-11-29
Posts: 1721
Bikes: 5
For Sale: 2
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Re: Found out a mystery bike it took almost year

I contract added friend mike on facebook so just waiting on a reply from him back


looking for 16 skyways,white jr seat,haro forks 82-84,and more stuff for hight freestlye bike pm me have lots to trade or might have cash

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