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gaijin · 2012-10-26 10:44am

So, if a 19.5 TT is a Mad Dog, and a 20" TT is a Dirt Bike, what's a Mad Dog XL, and how come my 92 DB had a 20.5" TT?

papalone13 · 2012-10-26 10:50am

Ok so we gotta remember that s&m was a relatively new company back then. im sure they were very unorganized the first few years. you could igaine that at some point during the stickering process, they perhaps ran out of "dirtbike" decals with a few frames left. then chris just slapping the remaining few 20" frames with mad dog decals.... or something like that. then those frames actually being sold as mad dogs. hell it could happen and i dont doubt it.

but lets get back to the matter at hand. "dirtbike" and "mad dog" are just names. those names have no direct link to the frames other than what the owner of the company (moeller) says they are. what we do have evidence of is... 12/89 frames with a P have a 20" TT, 12/89 frames with an ST have a 19.5 TT. whatever you wanna call it after that point is up to you, because the frames otherwise appear to be virtually identical.

lets keep the serials coming

Last edited by papalone13 (2012-10-26 10:51am)

papalone13 · 2012-10-26 10:52am

gaijin wrote:
So, if a 19.5 TT is a Mad Dog, and a 20" TT is a Dirt Bike, what's a Mad Dog XL, and how come my 92 DB had a 20.5" TT?

if you have a serial number of a "mad dog XL" ... please post some pics

RyanPartridge · 2012-10-26 10:56am

Good info on this thread!

hboost · 2012-10-26 11:08am

The best way to put the mad dog info together would be to get all the og finish, og decal bikes/frames and compare serials from there.

m3brendan · 2012-10-26 11:34am

Ironically, I ordered a Mad Dog in November of 1989 and opened the box to find a Dirtbike...so I think there is some merit to Moeller slapping on whatever decals he had laying around. I think S&M was being run out of Moeller's garage on Alabama Street in Huntington Beach at the time, so anything was possible back in those days.

Hard to believe 23 years later I'm still trying to figure all this out...

Detroit Dirt Bikes · 2012-10-26 12:02pm

Last edited by Detroit Dirt Bikes (2012-10-27 12:31am)

papalone13 · 2012-10-26 1:50pm

the machined head tube rings is another interesting question.. fat rings compared to the thin rings. bothe frames have 20" top tubes, both are 1289xxxx s&m P frames, yet one has fat and one has skinny. is there a difference? is the skinny rings the mad dog pro and fat is dirtbike? all stuff that is gonna be hard to clear up

hboost · 2012-10-26 2:08pm

papalone13 wrote:
the machined head tube rings is another interesting question.. fat rings compared to the thin rings. bothe frames have 20" top tubes, both are 1289xxxx s&m P frames, yet one has fat and one has skinny. is there a difference? is the skinny rings the mad dog pro and fat is dirtbike? all stuff that is gonna be hard to clear up
http://i48.tinypic.com/2m2cscj.jpg

There is no way you can go by headtube rings/shape.

papalone13 · 2012-10-26 2:19pm

hboost wrote:
papalone13 wrote:
the machined head tube rings is another interesting question.. fat rings compared to the thin rings. bothe frames have 20" top tubes, both are 1289xxxx s&m P frames, yet one has fat and one has skinny. is there a difference? is the skinny rings the mad dog pro and fat is dirtbike? all stuff that is gonna be hard to clear up
http://i48.tinypic.com/2m2cscj.jpg
There is no way you can go by headtube rings/shape.

i understand, what im saying is the black frame i just posted is identical to m3brendans, except for one thing- the headtube rings. im wondering why that, if they were made in the same batch in 12/89- both with 20" tt, why were they different headtubes?

trinwhite · 2012-10-26 3:07pm

trinwhite wrote:
Cool, great info here mate!
That third pic down of the dirt bikes serials has me guessing though, it looks too similar to a mad dog but with the P stamped lower and not after the s&m stamping?

Would be intersted to see what the head tube would be with the one I'm talking about?

papalone13 · 2012-10-26 3:22pm

trinwhite wrote:
trinwhite wrote:
Cool, great info here mate!
That third pic down of the dirt bikes serials has me guessing though, it looks too similar to a mad dog but with the P stamped lower and not after the s&m stamping?
Would be intersted to see what the head tube would be with the one I'm talking about?

351 and 360 have thin rings

409 has fat rings

hboost · 2012-10-26 3:25pm

All the 89/90 GT made dirt bikes I've seen have had fat rings and a PSM serial, not the S&M P.

papalone13 · 2012-10-28 9:16pm

these all have 20 inch top tubes notice the rings on the head tube though. the black one and the middle one are from the same batch- only about 50 numbers off. wondering why the rings are different.

Last edited by papalone13 (2012-10-28 9:17pm)

Dannywhac · 2012-10-29 2:10am

papalone13 wrote:
these all have 20 inch top tubes notice the rings on the head tube though. the black one and the middle one are from the same batch- only about 50 numbers off. wondering why the rings are different.
http://i45.tinypic.com/2cerg52.jpg

Have you checked the shorter rings on their surface that meets the headset cups for cut marks (although looking at the pic the headtube looks the same length so this isn't probably the case), but you'd sometimes get them cut down back then if the headset cups had flared through use.

Also just probably a result of what they had kicking around when they were building them up on the jigs.

Nbl 49a · 2012-10-29 4:51am

papalone13 · 2012-10-29 9:11am

Dannywhac wrote:
papalone13 wrote:
these all have 20 inch top tubes notice the rings on the head tube though. the black one and the middle one are from the same batch- only about 50 numbers off. wondering why the rings are different.
http://i45.tinypic.com/2cerg52.jpg
Have you checked the shorter rings on their surface that meets the headset cups for cut marks (although looking at the pic the headtube looks the same length so this isn't probably the case), but you'd sometimes get them cut down back then if the headset cups had flared through use.

Also just probably a result of what they had kicking around when they were building them up on the jigs.

yeah both headtubes measure about 4" long and neither are cut. i was thinking the same thing with the "whatever they had laying around" theory. if you look at bill's mad dog on the first page "wds"... the rings are fat. i would really love to know what his serial number is, if he has a 19.5 tt with fat rings, that would probably solidify the fact that the rings mean nothing. but if the ring theory has some merit, it would explain why m3brendan's has MD stickers.

Nbl 49a wrote:
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o134 … G_0005.jpg

whatcha got there?!

twizm · 2012-10-29 10:59pm

Wow that's pretty amazing that one...

Nbl 49a · 2012-10-30 10:37pm

http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=465652

S&M 25 yr Anniversary Mad Dog Build

squirrelsmith · 2012-10-30 10:54pm

papalone13 wrote:
these all have 20 inch top tubes notice the rings on the head tube though. the black one and the middle one are from the same batch- only about 50 numbers off. wondering why the rings are different.
http://i45.tinypic.com/2cerg52.jpg

you guys are looking into it too much. you could probably ask dude that made tham and he'd give you a answer like "what the hell is a ring?" or "cause i like to party"

papalone13 · 2012-10-30 11:13pm

squirrelsmith wrote:
papalone13 wrote:
these all have 20 inch top tubes notice the rings on the head tube though. the black one and the middle one are from the same batch- only about 50 numbers off. wondering why the rings are different.
http://i45.tinypic.com/2cerg52.jpg
you guys are looking into it too much. you could probably ask dude that made tham and he'd give you a answer like "what the hell is a ring?" or "cause i like to party"

he hasnt answered me back, any other ideas?

dge-it-s-me · 2012-10-31 4:12am

serial number: 11900009 S&M P
Top tube: 19,5.

gaijin · 2012-10-31 9:40am

papalone13 wrote:
gaijin wrote:
So, if a 19.5 TT is a Mad Dog, and a 20" TT is a Dirt Bike, what's a Mad Dog XL, and how come my 92 DB had a 20.5" TT?
if you have a serial number of a "mad dog XL" ... please post some pics

I got nuthin' but memories of either my MD (not seen since 92) or my DB (not seen since 96).

gaijin · 2012-10-31 9:45am

dge-it-s-me wrote:
http://bmxmuseum.com/image/20120115_16.05.49_blowup.jpg

serial number: 11900009 S&M P
Top tube: 19,5.

So nice. I'd swap out the pedals and bars, but that's just me. I'd also hook up a brake cable.

papalone13 · 2012-10-31 10:17am

decided to do an Early s&m registry- dirtbike, mad dog or whatever you wanna call it...

(1988 models)
sm888175 = 18.5" TT
sm888186 = 19.5" TT
sm78811x = 19.5" TT
sms1188014 = TT-?

(June 1989)
689-0862 PSM = 20" TT
689-0951 PSM = 20" TT

(December 1989)
1289-0351 S&M P = 20" TT
1289-0360 S&M P = 20" TT
1289-0409 S&M P = 20" TT
1289-0479 S&M ST = 19.5 TT
1289-0487 S&M ST = 19.5 TT
1289-0502 S&M ST = 19.5 TT

(November 1990)
1190-0009 S&M P = 19.5" TT
1190-0068 S&M P = 19.5" TT
1190-0081 S&M P = 19.5" TT
1190-0098 S&M P = 19.5" TT
1190-0163 S&M XL = 20" TT
1190-0175 S&M XL = 20" TT

Last edited by papalone13 (2012-10-31 10:22am)

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