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Matiz · RSS feed for topic

Hello everyone

Investigate. I've bought frame as Butcher. But I'm fourth or even fifth owner, so I wanted to dig up his history.

There were officialy 2 bikes in my country, both of them seems to be around city of Wrocław.
I contact a bigeest fan of HB in Poland, He said one of them, original raw, is owned by guy who don't want to sell it. The second one was seen on the streets of wrocław.

With differences in apperance it seems to be a 2002 instrument, but I cant find any big photos or sth. to compare them

first up the photos:

butchers for sure, found in web

2002 instrument

My frame

3.6kg its around 7.9 pounds

CLUES:

- Gusset. Mine lokks too small. A weld between TT and DT too
8cm long to the headtube
connecting weld between DT & TT- 2.5cm

Based on that, it seems to be

other hand

-CS upper tubes are welded slighty higher, (compared to 2002 instrument) close to seattube weld.

-dropouts with sharpen/deeper cut-in. Haven't seen similar on any of those two bikes

-Instrument Gusset seems to be longer, but not that "fat" like in my frame

misc:

-STREET written on BB
-Headtube fat as hell
-hb logos at gusset and end of the TT

I've asked some time ago, how about frame serial numer. But it was said there isn't any specs hidden on it.

I will be thankful for any help.
Matiz

Matiz · 2013-01-29 6:43am

sorry I can't find edit button

Based on that It seems to be transitional model between butcher and instrument from 2002, or one of first Instruments made. Hard to say, there's not much photos of this bikes in web

Bails · 2013-01-29 6:58am

I have an Instrument frame and fork, it has "INST" stamped on the BB, I think it's a 2003 model.

The main difference between mine and the Butchers you posted is the lower butting on the head tube tapers almost all the way to the bottom. Let me know if you want me to take some pics.

Matiz · 2013-01-29 7:13am

That will be great Bails! Yes please.

main parts are Headtube, Gusset, connection of CS and TT and dropouts.

I've got theory about BB stamps. Looks like there weren't aftermarket hoffman frames in that time. I think it was something to tell the difference between frames while hanging in factory. But don't know what STREET describes. 2002 catalougue would help, but someone asked here about it before. Nothing

Grejfrut (Hb fan) said that Dirt Merchant were written DIRT, Resistance- RESIST. So STREET is some kind mysterious...

Grat thing will be contact directly to MATT ,but as a famous person he's got people to do the job

http://mathoffman.com/contact/

Bails · 2013-01-29 8:05am

I've never heard of "street" stamped on the BB either. I have a friend who has a Butcher, if I can I'll ask him what is stamped on his.

My head tube gusset measures about 10.5cm along the welds on the side and about 7cm along the bottom and it's not welded to the DT on the end. My forks have 990 mounts.

Here's the pics, hope they help

Matiz · 2013-01-29 9:02pm

Thanks Bails!

I'll try write to people who have Butchers and ask what's written on BB.

Grejfrut post another clue- He said that butchers didn't have a H*B stamp at the end of TT

So except BB stamp it seems to be Instrument

Moar pics will be nice, 2002 Instrument maybe and more Butchers of course

Matiz · 2013-01-30 4:39am

okay more clues after Grejfrut answer:

-butcher: 20" tt only
-instrument: 20.5" tt
-instrument Seth signature: 21"tt

Butcher production 2001-2001
Instrument production 2003 only

Headtube logo were coloured only at the pro version.
But I'm not sure about some of his infos

other:
-Every Instrument I found have gusset welded only at the sides

-there were Different butchers too, some of them have stock gyrotabs at the headtube, those are Pro series

-Prodigy, Resistance Prodigy, Flow - no gusset at the DT

-dug up also some BB stamps

KAGY

900

Sent messages to Bmxmuseum Butcher owners.

Bails- if you can ask your friend what's written at his bb will be awesome

Bails · 2013-01-30 5:17am

Matiz wrote:
Bails- if you can ask your friend what's written at his bb will be awesome

No problem, will probably be a few days before I get to see him though.

I measured my Instruments TT, it was around 20.3"

Some other ID stamps have more than just the model name, two that I have are:
2006 EL Condor 20" wheels - CON 20
2009 Loyalty 20.875" TT - LOYA2087

I also have a '99 Deebo that doesn't have this kind of stamp so HB must have started doing this around 2000-2002.

Matiz · 2013-01-30 5:49am

Serious bussinnes I tried to measure mine, and it was around 20.7 as Butcher said. I've asked him personally before I've bought this frame

Joe Butcher Kowalski
2 października 2011

Hey whats up? I remember its short 20 3/4 and kinda heavy those where the jump off a building days lol but no I never broke one just dented and grinded to hell.

sooo... it must be butch frame or i fooled him

Feels like CSI My friend Cyryl still saying "so weird! something really weird or maybe even a prototype". Dunno, in my opinion it can be even "taiwanese prank" from factory.

Grejfrut still posts me differences between those frames, and.... its getting less "instrumental". I thought about Seth PRO signature, but don't have any photos. Grejfrut says the Seth's top model had Brake mounts at the upper CS tubes.
so its pointless, mine had them at the lower tube.

I want it to be 100% originl Butcher, but I've got to be realist

bb stamps should solve the problem.

Bails, big thanks for help! one more thing- AUS is for Austria or Australia? Here we have 14:45 at the clock

Bails · 2013-01-30 6:12am

Matiz wrote:
Bails, big thanks for help! one more thing- AUS is for Austria or Australia? Here we have 14:45 at the clock

Glad to help, I'm always curious about Hoffman info.

Aus is for Australia, I'll change that so that it's more clear. It's 1:10 am here!

Matiz · 2013-02-04 3:26am

for other source
museum users didn't answered. yet

geoluv · 2013-02-06 10:13pm

Hoffman def did make aftermarket frames, I know cause I bought a 2001 or 2002 butcher frame from action wheels in Bethlehem pa a couple days after hoffman dropped him, ha. It was he one with graffiti font. It was either in 2000 or 2001. Build quality was eh, but it was a cheap frame. I could push the bearing cups into the bb shell by hand. The top tube was 20", very short so maybe you could measure yours and see, but maybe the completes had dif top tubes.

Matiz · 2013-02-07 2:06pm

Thanks for info geoluv!

yeah I've heard that Butchers were 20" only

_________

Well SHIT! I dunno how I did it before, but I measured it now and it's 51cm= 20"tt
CS= 36 cm , so slammed is around 14"cs

SEEMS LEGIT ,seems butcher

one more thing , auction that I've ignored before, and overall - I've forgot about it.

http://archiwumallegro.pl/bmx_hoffman_b … 19786.html

HOFFMAN BIKES"INSTRUMENT" - Joe "Butcher" Kowalski signature frame:- 100% 4130 Cromo- 20" top tube- 1-1/8 Aheadset- Chainstay 990 brake pivots- USA Bottom bracket- Black- waga 3.3 kilo- kupiona w 2003 roku

It seems to be my frame, I hope that buyer from 2006 will answer.

It described as 2003 instrument butcher. Dunno whats going on. The theory about "last butcher" looks like true All about gusset! Maybe I got something even more rare that i thought last series ever made or something.... or transitional as I said

BB stamps will solve the problem,I will be thankful if you know any butcher owner and ask him for it.
Also I've try to contact those two guys (seller and buyer from 2006)

Matiz · 2013-02-07 2:12pm

Oh, again ,post edition will be better.

maybe someone WANTED it to be Butcher, I thought about it too, but as you see- none of instruments had gusset welded around.

Instrument possibilities are:
-first instrument model
-on of the last instument model

but still ,as were said - Instrument were stamped INST.

CSI gonna be proud...

geoluv · 2013-02-07 8:19pm

This thread jogged my memory a little. Think the signature butcher aftermarket frame and complete was only sold for one or two years then he got dropped and the next year I think they just changed the name to the intsrument so they could clear out their inventory without paying him. These days if a pro designed a frame and got dropped and the company kept selling the exact same frame leftovers just renamed there would be more of a stink. Wonder why they dropped him after they had already ordered next years frames? Ran out of money or he did something wrong?

Matiz · 2013-02-08 3:05pm

It was said couple of times, Butcher seems to be "free bird" ,not a pro star. If I remember correctly he was a member of "fbm funhouse" in that time. Dunno, maybe he decided that "pro life" is not for him.

https://vimeo.com/18094237

he is funny featured in props "inside hoffman bikes"

(matt)- Oh, a Butcher's bike... THE BEAUTY (can't uderstand the rest)
and it looks like HB Deebo

I don't even know, He was kicked out , or resign by himself?

http://propsbmx.bnqt.com/videos/detail/ … 6329607001

I like this guy so much, He uploaded a epic mix some time ago, it blowed my mind. How did he manage to grab this peg!
http://youtu.be/7BD1luI1Ppw

Matiz · 2013-03-10 12:58am

Bumper

Bails · 2013-03-13 5:14am

Hey Matiz,

Sorry for the slow reply but I finally caught up with my mate and got some pics for you.

There are a few differences between his frame and yours, his has no HB stamp at the end of the top tube, it also has gyro tabs and the dropouts look to be different.

It is stamped "BUT" on the BB. So unfortunately there is still no answer on why yours is stamped street, maybe the one you have was made after he left Hoffman and they couldn't use his name anymore.

Here are the pics:

Hope this helps a little.

Matiz · 2013-03-13 8:00am

This helps a lot Bails, thanks so much!

So I don't know what's going on

-no HB logo at the tt: confirmed
-longer gusset, welded arround: confirmed

So it looks like just instrument with different gusset + different stamp.

Other hand- it's still 20"tt, Instruments were longer....

Looks like I'm in the dead end. Without someone from Hoffman Bikes it seems impossible to get know what is this thing.

I'll try to contact with Matt

Matiz · 2013-04-01 4:19pm

Hello out there!

I've got one reply from HB Facebook ()

from the image yes it looks like the instrument frame.

(based at full-view of my red bike)

I answered "how about STREET stamp and full weld gusset?"
And waiting again.

Maybe it was a complete or something. I DONT KNOW- they should
Straight thing - STREET were (instert what you want), go away.

bike is almost ready for 2013 season. Also- frame recived a pearlescent colour from Opel Insignia

Ty666 · 2013-04-01 4:53pm

I I have a instrument frame I'll get specs

adamdawson · 2013-04-02 2:45pm

just looked through all the catalogs, 01,02 and 03.

its an instrument

Matiz · 2013-04-04 5:40am

Thanks adamdawson!

Can you tell something more? What "Street" means? TT Lenght? Hi-ten model? or it was complete?

adamdawson · 2013-04-04 3:35pm

the "street" means instrument. 20" tt. full chromo. couldnt tell you if it came as a complete or not.

Matiz · 2013-04-06 7:54am

Adamdawson
How detailed are those catalogues? Can you tell which one series had Full-weld gusset? There were many quality series, I've found Star,Pro,Prodigy and probably Flow. But we have only 3 instruments here at bmxmuseum... As I said, every Instrument I've found had it side-welded. Maybe it can be clue how old is mine. At one photo frame cracking at the end of gusset, so maybe it's a younger frames upgrade

close up shot posted at HB Fb, no one answered by far...
http://i.imgur.com/yqklOAu.jpg

I've heard that instruments were long frames, so if mine is short it seems to be one from cheaper series. But I've found one without any gusset and DT Wishbone

bonus. Waiting for new kmc710 and fresh meat season gonna be oppened

butcher sticker is still on the frame, it was hard work to make it

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2002 Hoffman - BUTCHER or INSTRUMENT?

2002 Hoffman - BUTCHER or INSTRUMENT?

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Matiz wrote:

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Matiz wrote:

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