2002 Hoffman - BUTCHER or INSTRUMENT?  RSS Feed

#1 2013-01-29 6:36am

Matiz
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From: Poland
Registered: 2009-09-19
Posts: 35
Bikes: 3
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2002 Hoffman - BUTCHER or INSTRUMENT?

Hello everyone

Investigate. I've bought frame as Butcher. But I'm fourth or even fifth owner, so I wanted to dig up his history.


There were officialy 2 bikes in my country, both of them seems to be around city of Wrocław.
I contact a bigeest fan of HB in Poland, He said one of them, original raw, is owned by guy who don't want to sell it. The second one was seen on the streets of wrocław.

With differences in apperance it seems to be a 2002 instrument, but I cant find any big photos or sth. to compare them

first up the photos:

butchers for sure, found in web

http://i.imgur.com/sOvTJ8Y.jpg

http://gp1.pinkbike.org/p4pb265792/p4pb265792.jpg

2002 instrument
http://bmxmuseum.com/image/bike1_copy41_lg.jpg

My frame
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/3066/spa0612k.jpg
3.6kg its around 7.9 pounds

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/5152/dsc05994c.jpg
http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/6198/dsc05986v.jpg
http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/1053/finest11.jpg
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/6190/finest17.jpg
http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/200/finest10.jpg

CLUES:

- Gusset. Mine lokks too small. A weld between TT and DT too
8cm long to the headtube
connecting weld between DT & TT- 2.5cm

Based on that, it seems to be

other hand

-CS upper tubes are welded slighty higher, (compared to 2002 instrument) close to seattube weld.

-dropouts with sharpen/deeper cut-in. Haven't seen similar on any of those two bikes

-Instrument Gusset seems to be longer, but not that "fat" like in my frame

misc:

-STREET written on BB
-Headtube fat as hell
-hb logos at gusset and end of the TT


I've asked some time ago, how about frame serial numer. But it was said there isn't any specs hidden on it.

I will be thankful for any help.
Matiz

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#2 2013-01-29 6:43am

Matiz
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From: Poland
Registered: 2009-09-19
Posts: 35
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Re: 2002 Hoffman - BUTCHER or INSTRUMENT?

sorry  I can't find edit button

Based on that It seems to be transitional model between butcher and instrument from 2002, or one of first Instruments made. Hard to say, there's not much photos of this bikes in web

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#3 2013-01-29 6:58am

Bails
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From: Australia
Registered: 2012-03-23
Posts: 123
Bikes: 3
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Re: 2002 Hoffman - BUTCHER or INSTRUMENT?

I have an Instrument frame and fork, it has "INST" stamped on the BB, I think it's a 2003 model.

The main difference between mine and the Butchers you posted is the lower butting on the head tube tapers almost all the way to the bottom. Let me know if you want me to take some pics.


Wanted: AC racing 888 15t freewheel

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#4 2013-01-29 7:13am

Matiz
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From: Poland
Registered: 2009-09-19
Posts: 35
Bikes: 3
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Re: 2002 Hoffman - BUTCHER or INSTRUMENT?

That will be great Bails! Yes please. big_smile

main parts are Headtube, Gusset, connection of CS and TT and dropouts.

I've got theory about BB stamps.  Looks like there weren't aftermarket hoffman frames in that time. I think it was something to tell the difference between frames while hanging in factory. But don't know what STREET describes. 2002 catalougue would help, but someone asked here about it before. Nothing sad

Grejfrut (Hb fan) said that Dirt Merchant were written DIRT, Resistance- RESIST. So STREET is some kind mysterious...

Grat thing will be contact directly to MATT ,but as a famous person he's got people to do the job cool

http://mathoffman.com/contact/

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#5 2013-01-29 8:05am

Bails
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From: Australia
Registered: 2012-03-23
Posts: 123
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Re: 2002 Hoffman - BUTCHER or INSTRUMENT?

I've never heard of "street" stamped on the BB either. I have a friend who has a Butcher, if I can I'll ask him what is stamped on his.

My head tube gusset measures about 10.5cm along the welds on the side and about 7cm along the bottom and it's not welded to the DT on the end. My forks have 990 mounts.

Here's the pics, hope they help

http://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt141/ACTmatt/hbinst4.jpg

http://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt141/ACTmatt/hbinst2.jpg

http://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt141/ACTmatt/hbinst1.jpg

http://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt141/ACTmatt/hbinst3.jpg


Wanted: AC racing 888 15t freewheel

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#6 2013-01-29 9:02pm

Matiz
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From: Poland
Registered: 2009-09-19
Posts: 35
Bikes: 3
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Re: 2002 Hoffman - BUTCHER or INSTRUMENT?

Thanks Bails!

I'll try write to people who have Butchers and ask what's written on BB.


Grejfrut post another clue- He said that butchers didn't have a H*B stamp at the end of TT hmm


So except BB stamp it seems to be Instrument sad


Moar pics will be nice, 2002 Instrument maybe and more Butchers of course wink

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#7 2013-01-30 4:39am

Matiz
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From: Poland
Registered: 2009-09-19
Posts: 35
Bikes: 3
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Re: 2002 Hoffman - BUTCHER or INSTRUMENT?

okay more clues after Grejfrut answer:

-butcher: 20" tt only
-instrument: 20.5" tt
-instrument Seth signature: 21"tt

Butcher production 2001-2001
Instrument production 2003 only

Headtube logo were coloured only at the pro version.
But I'm not sure about some of his infos roll

other:
-Every Instrument I found have gusset welded only at the sides
http://bmxmuseum.com/image/hoffman_instrument_frame_copy0_blowup.jpg

-there were Different butchers too, some of them have stock gyrotabs at the headtube, those are Pro series
http://www.importatlanta.com/forums/attachments/sporting-goods/206541d1256870906-2001-hoffman-pro-butcher-gedc0094.jpg

-Prodigy, Resistance Prodigy, Flow - no gusset at the DT

-dug up also some BB stamps

KAGY
http://i588.photobucket.com/albums/ss322/andy_116/P1000997.jpg

900
http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii377/joeysprockets/IMG_2413-1.jpg

Sent messages to Bmxmuseum Butcher owners.

Bails- if you can ask your friend what's written at his bb will be awesome wink

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#8 2013-01-30 5:17am

Bails
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From: Australia
Registered: 2012-03-23
Posts: 123
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Re: 2002 Hoffman - BUTCHER or INSTRUMENT?

Matiz wrote:

Bails- if you can ask your friend what's written at his bb will be awesome wink

No problem, will probably be a few days before I get to see him though.

I measured my Instruments TT, it was around 20.3"

Some other ID stamps have more than just the model name, two that I have are:
2006 EL Condor 20" wheels - CON 20
2009 Loyalty 20.875" TT - LOYA2087

I also have a '99 Deebo that doesn't have this kind of stamp so HB must have started doing this around 2000-2002.


Wanted: AC racing 888 15t freewheel

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#9 2013-01-30 5:49am

Matiz
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From: Poland
Registered: 2009-09-19
Posts: 35
Bikes: 3
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Re: 2002 Hoffman - BUTCHER or INSTRUMENT?

Serious bussinnes tongue I tried to measure mine, and it was around 20.7 as Butcher said. I've asked him personally before I've bought this frame big_smile

Joe Butcher Kowalski
2 października 2011

Hey whats up? I remember its short 20 3/4 and kinda heavy those where the jump off a building days lol but no I never broke one just dented and grinded to hell.

sooo... it must be butch frame or i fooled him yikes tongue

http://i.imgur.com/amxeJcN.jpg

Feels like CSI tongue My friend Cyryl still saying "so weird! something really weird or maybe even a prototype". Dunno, in my opinion it can be even "taiwanese prank" from factory.

Grejfrut still posts me differences between those frames, and.... its getting less "instrumental"hmm. I thought about Seth PRO signature, but don't have any photos. Grejfrut says the Seth's top model had Brake mounts at the upper CS tubes.
so its pointless, mine had them at the lower tube.

I want it to be 100% originl Butcher, but I've got to be realist neutral

bb stamps should solve the problem.

Bails, big thanks for help! one more thing- AUS is for Austria or Australia? Here we have 14:45 at the clock wink

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#10 2013-01-30 6:12am

Bails
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From: Australia
Registered: 2012-03-23
Posts: 123
Bikes: 3
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Re: 2002 Hoffman - BUTCHER or INSTRUMENT?

Matiz wrote:

Bails, big thanks for help! one more thing- AUS is for Austria or Australia? Here we have 14:45 at the clock wink

Glad to help, I'm always curious about Hoffman info.

Aus is for Australia, I'll change that so that it's more clear. It's 1:10 am here! lol


Wanted: AC racing 888 15t freewheel

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#11 2013-02-04 3:26am

Matiz
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From: Poland
Registered: 2009-09-19
Posts: 35
Bikes: 3
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Re: 2002 Hoffman - BUTCHER or INSTRUMENT?

http://www.rs25.com/forums/images/smilies/bump.gif

for other source
museum users didn't answered. yet

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#12 2013-02-06 10:13pm

geoluv
Member
Registered: 2010-12-10
Posts: 48

Re: 2002 Hoffman - BUTCHER or INSTRUMENT?

Hoffman def did make aftermarket frames, I know cause I bought a 2001 or 2002 butcher frame from action wheels in Bethlehem pa a couple days after hoffman dropped him, ha.  It was he one with graffiti font.  It was either in 2000 or 2001.  Build quality was eh, but it was a cheap frame.  I could push the bearing cups into the bb shell by hand.  The top tube was 20", very short so maybe you could measure yours and see, but maybe the completes had dif top tubes.

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#13 2013-02-07 2:06pm

Matiz
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From: Poland
Registered: 2009-09-19
Posts: 35
Bikes: 3
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Re: 2002 Hoffman - BUTCHER or INSTRUMENT?

Thanks for info geoluv!

yeah I've heard that Butchers were 20" only roll

_________

Well SHIT! lol I dunno how I did it before, but I measured it now and it's 51cm= 20"tt
CS= 36 cm , so slammed is around 14"cs

SEEMS LEGIT ,seems butcher

http://i1.kwejk.pl/site_media/obrazki/2012/12/65beb9be056c788933dbd43b5121923c_original.gif?1356788706

one more thing , auction that I've ignored before, and overall - I've forgot about it.

http://archiwumallegro.pl/bmx_hoffman_b … 19786.html

HOFFMAN BIKES"INSTRUMENT" - Joe "Butcher" Kowalski signature frame:- 100% 4130 Cromo- 20" top tube- 1-1/8 Aheadset- Chainstay 990 brake pivots- USA Bottom bracket- Black- waga 3.3 kilo- kupiona w 2003 roku

It seems to be my frame, I hope that buyer from 2006 will answer.

It described as 2003 instrument butcher. Dunno whats going on. The theory about "last butcher" looks like true neutral All about gusset! Maybe I got something even more rare that i thought hmm last series ever made or something.... or transitional as I said hmm


BB stamps will solve the problem,I will be thankful if you know any butcher owner and ask him for it.
Also I've try to contact those two guys (seller and buyer from 2006)

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#14 2013-02-07 2:12pm

Matiz
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From: Poland
Registered: 2009-09-19
Posts: 35
Bikes: 3
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Re: 2002 Hoffman - BUTCHER or INSTRUMENT?

Oh, again ,post edition will be better.


maybe someone WANTED it to be Butcher, I thought about it too, but as you see- none of instruments had gusset welded around.

Instrument possibilities are:
-first instrument model
-on of the last instument model

but still ,as were said - Instrument were stamped INST. neutral

CSI gonna be proud... big_smile

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#15 2013-02-07 8:19pm

geoluv
Member
Registered: 2010-12-10
Posts: 48

Re: 2002 Hoffman - BUTCHER or INSTRUMENT?

This thread jogged my memory a little.  Think the signature butcher aftermarket frame and complete was only sold for one or two years then he got dropped and the next year I think they just changed the name to the intsrument so they could clear out their inventory without paying him.  These days if a pro designed a frame and got dropped and the company kept selling the exact same frame leftovers just renamed there would be more of a stink.  Wonder why they dropped him after they had already ordered next years frames?  Ran out of money or he did something wrong?

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#16 2013-02-08 3:05pm

Matiz
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From: Poland
Registered: 2009-09-19
Posts: 35
Bikes: 3
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Re: 2002 Hoffman - BUTCHER or INSTRUMENT?

It was said couple of times, Butcher seems to be "free bird" ,not a pro star. If I remember correctly he was a member of "fbm funhouse" in that time. Dunno, maybe he decided that "pro life" is not for him.


https://vimeo.com/18094237


he is funny featured in props "inside hoffman bikes"

(matt)- Oh, a Butcher's bike... THE BEAUTY lol (can't uderstand the rest)
and it looks like HB  Deebo

I don't even know, He was kicked out , or resign by himself?

http://propsbmx.bnqt.com/videos/detail/ … 6329607001


I like this guy so much, He uploaded a epic mix some time ago, it blowed my mind. How did he manage to grab this peg!
http://youtu.be/7BD1luI1Ppw

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#17 2013-03-10 12:58am

Matiz
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From: Poland
Registered: 2009-09-19
Posts: 35
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Re: 2002 Hoffman - BUTCHER or INSTRUMENT?

Bumper sad

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#18 2013-03-13 5:14am

Bails
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From: Australia
Registered: 2012-03-23
Posts: 123
Bikes: 3
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Re: 2002 Hoffman - BUTCHER or INSTRUMENT?

Hey Matiz,

Sorry for the slow reply but I finally caught up with my mate and got some pics for you.

There are a few differences between his frame and yours, his has no HB stamp at the end of the top tube, it also has gyro tabs and the dropouts look to be different.

It is stamped "BUT" on the BB. So unfortunately there is still no answer on why yours is stamped street, maybe the one you have was made after he left Hoffman and they couldn't use his name anymore.

Here are the pics:

http://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt141/ACTmatt/butcher6_zps270e5fba.jpg
http://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt141/ACTmatt/butcher5_zps9158946a.jpg
http://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt141/ACTmatt/butcher4_zps9d217c1b.jpg
http://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt141/ACTmatt/butcher3_zpsb67e00af.jpg
http://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt141/ACTmatt/butcher7_zps4b8e8dbd.jpg
http://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt141/ACTmatt/butcher2_zps71ec8238.jpg
http://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt141/ACTmatt/butcher1_zpsa2487be2.jpg

Hope this helps a little.


Wanted: AC racing 888 15t freewheel

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#19 2013-03-13 8:00am

Matiz
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From: Poland
Registered: 2009-09-19
Posts: 35
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Re: 2002 Hoffman - BUTCHER or INSTRUMENT?

This helps a lot Bails, thanks so much!

So I don't know what's going on hmm

-no HB logo at the tt: confirmed
-longer gusset, welded arround: confirmed



So it looks like just instrument with different gusset + different stamp.

Other hand- it's still 20"tt, Instruments were longer....


Looks like I'm in the dead end. Without someone from Hoffman Bikes it seems impossible to get know what is this thing.

I'll try to contact with Matt sad

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#20 2013-04-01 4:19pm

Matiz
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From: Poland
Registered: 2009-09-19
Posts: 35
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Re: 2002 Hoffman - BUTCHER or INSTRUMENT?

Hello out there!

I've got one reply from HB Facebook (roll)

from the image yes it looks like the instrument frame.

(based at full-view of my red bike)

I answered "how about STREET stamp and full weld gusset?"
And waiting again.


Maybe it was a complete or something. I DONT KNOW- they should sad
Straight thing - STREET were (instert what you want), go away. tongue

bike is almost ready for 2013 season. Also- frame recived a pearlescent colour from Opel Insignia big_smile

http://i.imgur.com/huFtfGe.jpg

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#21 2013-04-01 4:53pm

Ty666
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Registered: 2010-05-12
Posts: 761

Re: 2002 Hoffman - BUTCHER or INSTRUMENT?

I I have a instrument frame I'll get specs

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#22 2013-04-02 2:45pm

adamdawson
Hoffman Overlord
From: Jacksonville, FL
Registered: 2008-05-14
Posts: 3481
Bikes: 6

Re: 2002 Hoffman - BUTCHER or INSTRUMENT?

just looked through all the catalogs, 01,02 and 03.

its an instrument

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#23 2013-04-04 5:40am

Matiz
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From: Poland
Registered: 2009-09-19
Posts: 35
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Re: 2002 Hoffman - BUTCHER or INSTRUMENT?

Thanks adamdawson!

Can you tell something more? What "Street" means? TT Lenght? Hi-ten model? or it was complete?

wink

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#24 2013-04-04 3:35pm

adamdawson
Hoffman Overlord
From: Jacksonville, FL
Registered: 2008-05-14
Posts: 3481
Bikes: 6

Re: 2002 Hoffman - BUTCHER or INSTRUMENT?

the "street" means instrument.  20" tt.  full chromo. couldnt tell you if it came as a complete or not.

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#25 2013-04-06 7:54am

Matiz
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From: Poland
Registered: 2009-09-19
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Re: 2002 Hoffman - BUTCHER or INSTRUMENT?

Adamdawson
How detailed are those catalogues? Can you tell which one series had Full-weld gusset? sad There were many quality series, I've found Star,Pro,Prodigy and probably Flow. But we have only 3 instruments here at bmxmuseum... As I said, every Instrument I've found had it side-welded. Maybe it can be clue how old is mine. At one photo frame cracking at the end of gusset, so maybe it's a younger frames upgrade hmm

close up shot posted at HB Fb, no one answered by far...
http://i.imgur.com/yqklOAu.jpg

I've heard that instruments were long frames, so if mine is short it seems to be one from cheaper series. But I've found one without any gusset and DT Wishbone

http://gp1.pinkbike.org/p4pb4569504/p4pb4569504.jpg






bonus. Waiting for new kmc710 and fresh meat season gonna be oppened big_smile
http://i.imgur.com/gwHnIgw.jpg?1
butcher sticker is still on the frame, it was hard work to make it wink

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