The old vs new and seat post argument that ends up in most threads.  RSS Feed

#1 2012-12-09 8:25am

GENERATORSHOVEL
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From: Springfield, IL
Registered: 2010-01-30
Posts: 188

The old vs new and seat post argument that ends up in most threads.

Yes, there are guys out there rocking 80's and 90's (with a foot high post) bikes that are incredibly fast and beating guys on new bikes.  It doesn't mean that you can.  For the cost, I would rather have a custom Standard or S&M built to suit my size, and my seat post is going to be dropped and out of my way on the track.  Building an old school bike to race isn't gonna save you any money, unless you already have all the stuff from BITD.  Your average rider is going to produce a faster lap time on a NS race bike built for him with no seat post in the way than an OS bike, period.  I am racing 20" this year (not just Cruiser) with a 23"TT Standard.  I will get around the track faster on it than with my 82 Hutch Pro Racer.  I guess I just don't understand why the argument comes up in all the threads.  It's simple that two equal riders (or the same rider) on OS and NS bikes will come out with the NS being faster.  I wish that I was as fast on an OS bike, but I'm not, and the vast majority of riders out there aren't either.

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#2 2012-12-09 8:31am

GENERATORSHOVEL
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From: Springfield, IL
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Re: The old vs new and seat post argument that ends up in most threads.

Ha, nothing would be cooler than winning a National Cruiser main on an old Floval or Hutch with a paper plate and magic marker numbers!  But there aren't many guys that could do it!

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#3 2012-12-10 6:14am

jasvanek
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Re: The old vs new and seat post argument that ends up in most threads.

Eric Rupe


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"Besides being a guitar player, I'm a big fan of the guitar. I love that damn instrument." - Steve Vai

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#4 2012-12-10 6:24am

jasvanek
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Re: The old vs new and seat post argument that ends up in most threads.

But that being said, what you say is true. There are some dudes out there who are just magic on their bike. Awesome if you can do that, but the majority of guys who come out to the track on the OS bike get handled and rolled up. Partly because they're not as good as the think they are, but it certainly doesn't help when your pushing your equipment to do something it was never really designed for. I love old school and always will, but I wouldn't race it today.


--http://www.youtube.com/user/javanek/videos
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#5 2012-12-10 9:47am

Therealpoorboy
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Re: The old vs new and seat post argument that ends up in most threads.

All this geometry BS is just that.  it still boils down to a man and his bike.  Are Frames and components better now than 20 years ago? Yes.  But Headtube angles have not changed, chainstays were always random lengths,  and BB heights havent changed.  The only difference is longer TT's are more easily availible now.  I can put you on a 20 year old TNT longfellow with new components and I gaurantee 99% of people out there couldnt tell a difference in a blind test.


WANTED:  Auburn prototype 20" frame (longshot I know)

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#6 2012-12-10 8:34pm

ProThunder4
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Re: The old vs new and seat post argument that ends up in most threads.

I've got about six inches of post showing on my '98 GT Pro Series and can't lower the seat any more without a hacksaw.  Being new to racing, I don't think it slows me down at all.  I look at the stuff guys were doing on bikes of that era in the old catalogs, magazines, and videos and I think to myself that I'll be lucky if my skills ever outgrow my Mid School bikes.  My only real complaint is that they're rather heavy (although granted I haven't put any real effort or expense into trimming the weight on them).  I think at some level equipment might provide that edge that separates equals, but I'm a long way from that level.  And they've saved me a huge amount of money.  The Fueler was a $250 buy from CL, with maybe half that again in restoration costs to get the bike fully race ready.  The Pro Series was go to go from day one, and I got in a trade for another bike that had been given to me as a gift.     

I'm not going to front, I've also got a 2012 Standard 125R frame sitting in my office waiting to be built, but I'm in no hurry.  I've heard as a rule of thumb that mastery of a complex skill takes 10,000 hours of practice.  In a good week I'll get maybe 10 hours of riding, more often more like five.  At that rate, I've got a long way to go before I blame my perfectly adequate equipment for losing races.


Marshall W. "Major" Taylor, one of America's greatest bicycle racers, on succeeding in sport and life: Don't try to "gyp." Don't be a pie biter. Don't keep late hours. Don't use intoxicants. Don't be a big bluffer. Don't eat cheap candies. Don't get a swelled head. Don't use tobacco in any form. Don't fail to live a clean life. Don't forget to play the game fair. Don't take an unfair advantage of an opponent. Don't forget the practice of good sportsmanship.

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#7 2012-12-10 8:39pm

SCIVIC94
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From: New Jersey
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Re: The old vs new and seat post argument that ends up in most threads.

Therealpoorboy wrote:

All this geometry BS is just that.  it still boils down to a man and his bike.  Are Frames and components better now than 20 years ago? Yes.  But Headtube angles have not changed, chainstays were always random lengths,  and BB heights havent changed.  The only difference is longer TT's are more easily availible now.  I can put you on a 20 year old TNT longfellow with new components and I gaurantee 99% of people out there couldnt tell a difference in a blind test.

your argument is way off. headtube angles are not the same. bb hieghts do change. new rearends are alot shorter  or longer depending what frame you run then back in the day. you have alot to learn and yes i know what i am talking about . take alook at my collection. it spans from 85 right up till now. my newest bike is not listed yet.

Last edited by SCIVIC94 (2012-12-10 8:43pm)

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#8 2012-12-10 8:40pm

bailhard
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Re: The old vs new and seat post argument that ends up in most threads.

big_smile


I celebrate CHRISTMAS, I do not celebrate "The Holidays"

Also, Terry Fox is one of the greatest humans of all time. He just happens to be Canadian :-)

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#9 2012-12-11 7:44am

Therealpoorboy
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Re: The old vs new and seat post argument that ends up in most threads.

SCIVIC94 wrote:

Therealpoorboy wrote:

All this geometry BS is just that.  it still boils down to a man and his bike.  Are Frames and components better now than 20 years ago? Yes.  But Headtube angles have not changed, chainstays were always random lengths,  and BB heights havent changed.  The only difference is longer TT's are more easily availible now.  I can put you on a 20 year old TNT longfellow with new components and I gaurantee 99% of people out there couldnt tell a difference in a blind test.

your argument is way off. headtube angles are not the same. bb hieghts do change. new rearends are alot shorter  or longer depending what frame you run then back in the day. you have alot to learn and yes i know what i am talking about . take alook at my collection. it spans from 85 right up till now. my newest bike is not listed yet.

I'm way off?  Lets take a look then,

1988 Auburn   73 deg HT.  11.5" BB height  CS length 15-16"

2013 Redline  74 deg HT.  11.5" BB height   CS length 14.75-16"

so in 25 years we've changed the head tube 1 deg.  WOW thats ground breaking geometry changes.  I would love to see how many people could pick out that difference by just riding the bikes without knowing the specs.  I know i'm not gonna be able to pick that out.  But maybe your a pro and all since you have all them bikes. roll


WANTED:  Auburn prototype 20" frame (longshot I know)

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#10 2012-12-11 7:51am

Burning River
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Re: The old vs new and seat post argument that ends up in most threads.

Therealpoorboy wrote:

I'm way off?  Lets take a look then,

1988 Auburn   73 deg HT.  11.5" BB height  CS length 15-16"

2013 Redline  74 deg HT.  11.5" BB height   CS length 14.75-16"

so in 25 years we've changed the head tube 1 deg.  WOW thats ground breaking geometry changes.  I would love to see how many people could pick out that difference by just riding the bikes without knowing the specs.  I know i'm not gonna be able to pick that out.  But maybe your a pro and all since you have all them bikes. roll

http://www.thecitrusreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/werd2-540x375.jpg

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#11 2012-12-11 8:23am

SCIVIC94
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From: New Jersey
Registered: 2008-01-23
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Re: The old vs new and seat post argument that ends up in most threads.

Therealpoorboy wrote:

SCIVIC94 wrote:

Therealpoorboy wrote:

All this geometry BS is just that.  it still boils down to a man and his bike.  Are Frames and components better now than 20 years ago? Yes.  But Headtube angles have not changed, chainstays were always random lengths,  and BB heights havent changed.  The only difference is longer TT's are more easily availible now.  I can put you on a 20 year old TNT longfellow with new components and I gaurantee 99% of people out there couldnt tell a difference in a blind test.

your argument is way off. headtube angles are not the same. bb hieghts do change. new rearends are alot shorter  or longer depending what frame you run then back in the day. you have alot to learn and yes i know what i am talking about . take alook at my collection. it spans from 85 right up till now. my newest bike is not listed yet.

I'm way off?  Lets take a look then,

1988 Auburn   73 deg HT.  11.5" BB height  CS length 15-16"

2013 Redline  74 deg HT.  11.5" BB height   CS length 14.75-16"

so in 25 years we've changed the head tube 1 deg.  WOW thats ground breaking geometry changes.  I would love to see how many people could pick out that difference by just riding the bikes without knowing the specs.  I know i'm not gonna be able to pick that out.  But maybe your a pro and all since you have all them bikes. roll

A small change makes a larger difference then you. Seem to think. It does not take a rocket scientist to feel that in the way a bike steers. Nore the amount of effort to lull up a bike with a longer back end compared to a shorter rear. So yes an ibch off in the back and  one degree in headtube angle will make a noticable change

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#12 2012-12-11 9:38am

spyker
BMXer 4 Life
From: East Van
Registered: 2009-11-19
Posts: 4935

Re: The old vs new and seat post argument that ends up in most threads.

SCIVIC94 wrote:

Therealpoorboy wrote:

SCIVIC94 wrote:


your argument is way off. headtube angles are not the same. bb hieghts do change. new rearends are alot shorter  or longer depending what frame you run then back in the day. you have alot to learn and yes i know what i am talking about . take alook at my collection. it spans from 85 right up till now. my newest bike is not listed yet.

I'm way off?  Lets take a look then,

1988 Auburn   73 deg HT.  11.5" BB height  CS length 15-16"

2013 Redline  74 deg HT.  11.5" BB height   CS length 14.75-16"

so in 25 years we've changed the head tube 1 deg.  WOW thats ground breaking geometry changes.  I would love to see how many people could pick out that difference by just riding the bikes without knowing the specs.  I know i'm not gonna be able to pick that out.  But maybe your a pro and all since you have all them bikes. roll

A small change makes a larger difference then you. Seem to think. It does not take a rocket scientist to feel that in the way a bike steers. Nore the amount of effort to lull up a bike with a longer back end compared to a shorter rear. So yes an ibch off in the back and  one degree in headtube angle will make a noticable change

Absolutely correct!

Alot of NS riders will not even buy a frame if it's one degree off the normal geo they are use to riding or if the frame is a 1/4 inch longer in the rear than what they are use to.

It may not seem much on paper,but it's alot when you're riding it,not everything is about looks these days.....unless you're still stuck on OS ways.


Made In Taiwan #1.....You Have Chosen Wisely!  Guaranteed Strength

Would you trust a lazy drunk to weld up a frame that will be ridden hard?

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#13 2012-12-11 10:58am

Therealpoorboy
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From: Md
Registered: 2011-10-01
Posts: 329
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Re: The old vs new and seat post argument that ends up in most threads.

SCIVIC94 wrote:

A small change makes a larger difference then you. Seem to think. It does not take a rocket scientist to feel that in the way a bike steers. Nore the amount of effort to lull up a bike with a longer back end compared to a shorter rear. So yes an ibch off in the back and  one degree in headtube angle will make a noticable change

Then take into account that almost every fork made has a different height and offset,  Then take into account tire diameters also differ even though they are the same size and its almost impossible to actually put a true number on your true actual steer tube angle.

Forks
Sinz   313mm height 32.2mm off set  actual steer angle 68.5 deg
Answer 315mm height 28 offset  actual 69.23 deg
Supercross  318mm height 28 offset  actual 69.27 deg

Tires
Power block 20x1.75 504.4mm dia.
Powerblock S-spec 20x 1.75 508mm dia.
ITS 20x1.75  494.5mm dia.

These are just a quick shot at some of the most used parts I see.

I could very easily take a 73 deg frame and make it steer quicker than a 74 deg frame just using the parts I've listed. 

Nobody is saying a longer back end isnt as easy to manual as a shorter one,  all Im saying is they haven't changed as much as everyone thinks they have.

And lastly ill leave you with this, If you are steering a race bike your going too slow PERIOD.


WANTED:  Auburn prototype 20" frame (longshot I know)

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#14 2012-12-11 11:04am

Therealpoorboy
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From: Md
Registered: 2011-10-01
Posts: 329
Bikes: 8

Re: The old vs new and seat post argument that ends up in most threads.

spyker wrote:

Absolutely correct!

Alot of NS riders will not even buy a frame if it's one degree off the normal geo they are use to riding or if the frame is a 1/4 inch longer in the rear than what they are use to.

It may not seem much on paper,but it's alot when you're riding it,not everything is about looks these days.....unless you're still stuck on OS ways.

How many of them trig it out with their components to find the true number?


WANTED:  Auburn prototype 20" frame (longshot I know)

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#15 2012-12-11 11:25am

BMX-Wing
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From: East Of Cleveland
Registered: 2009-09-03
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Re: The old vs new and seat post argument that ends up in most threads.

hmm

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#16 2012-12-11 11:55am

SCIVIC94
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From: New Jersey
Registered: 2008-01-23
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Re: The old vs new and seat post argument that ends up in most threads.

Therealpoorboy wrote:

spyker wrote:

Absolutely correct!

Alot of NS riders will not even buy a frame if it's one degree off the normal geo they are use to riding or if the frame is a 1/4 inch longer in the rear than what they are use to.

It may not seem much on paper,but it's alot when you're riding it,not everything is about looks these days.....unless you're still stuck on OS ways.

How many of them trig it out with their components to find the true number?

Why do think alot of people stick with the same basic setup when ever they biuld a bike. Stay with the tires,stem, bars,fork. Or extremely close to thier desired setup. They with what the like. They lnow changing a stem length by a few mm will change the feel. And this is at any speed. And at any speed you need to turn your bars even if it is a tiny a mount. Tracks do have turns.

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#17 2012-12-11 2:50pm

bailhard
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Re: The old vs new and seat post argument that ends up in most threads.

Geometry makes absolutely no difference to me whatsoever. I can ride anything. I can do the EXACT same things on my old school bikes that I can on my new school bike(which I got rid of because it was ugly).

If 1 degree of head tube angle makes SUCH A HUGE difference in how you ride, and what you can do, then you are magical. If 1 degree of difference makes SUCH A HUGE difference, that it hinders your abilities, then you probably suck anyhow.

You like some bikes, I like others. You will NEVER convince me that new school is better, and i will NEVER try to convince you that old school is better.

I love cheesy nacho's  cool

Edit: No T in nacho's, but I spelled the most important part correctly. . .  cheesy

Last edited by bailhard (2012-12-11 3:15pm)


I celebrate CHRISTMAS, I do not celebrate "The Holidays"

Also, Terry Fox is one of the greatest humans of all time. He just happens to be Canadian :-)

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#18 2012-12-11 3:02pm

jasvanek
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From: Oklahoma
Registered: 2012-02-08
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Re: The old vs new and seat post argument that ends up in most threads.

bailhard wrote:

I love cheesy natcho's  cool

No 't' in nachos. -5 for spelling


--http://www.youtube.com/user/javanek/videos
"Besides being a guitar player, I'm a big fan of the guitar. I love that damn instrument." - Steve Vai

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#19 2012-12-11 3:19pm

Therealpoorboy
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From: Md
Registered: 2011-10-01
Posts: 329
Bikes: 8

Re: The old vs new and seat post argument that ends up in most threads.

SCIVIC94 wrote:

Therealpoorboy wrote:

spyker wrote:

Absolutely correct!

Alot of NS riders will not even buy a frame if it's one degree off the normal geo they are use to riding or if the frame is a 1/4 inch longer in the rear than what they are use to.

It may not seem much on paper,but it's alot when you're riding it,not everything is about looks these days.....unless you're still stuck on OS ways.

How many of them trig it out with their components to find the true number?

Why do think alot of people stick with the same basic setup when ever they biuld a bike. Stay with the tires,stem, bars,fork. Or extremely close to thier desired setup. They with what the like. They lnow changing a stem length by a few mm will change the feel. And this is at any speed. And at any speed you need to turn your bars even if it is a tiny a mount. Tracks do have turns.

This isnt the 80's anymore we have banked turns now.  Try turning your bars when your pedaling thru a banked turn, I dare ya.


WANTED:  Auburn prototype 20" frame (longshot I know)

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#20 2012-12-11 3:23pm

Therealpoorboy
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From: Md
Registered: 2011-10-01
Posts: 329
Bikes: 8

Re: The old vs new and seat post argument that ends up in most threads.

bailhard wrote:

Geometry makes absolutely no difference to me whatsoever. I can ride anything. I can do the EXACT same things on my old school bikes that I can on my new school bike(which I got rid of because it was ugly).

If 1 degree of head tube angle makes SUCH A HUGE difference in how you ride, and what you can do, then you are magical. If 1 degree of difference makes SUCH A HUGE difference, that it hinders your abilities, then you probably suck anyhow.

You like some bikes, I like others. You will NEVER convince me that new school is better, and i will NEVER try to convince you that old school is better.

I love cheesy nacho's  cool

Edit: No T in nacho's, but I spelled the most important part correctly. . .  cheesy

He's arguing with math and all he can come up with is he can feel the difference.  I wonder what happens when the bomb gets dropped that most most cruisers still use 73 HT's.  if it was as big of a deal as he makes it alot more people would be complaining jumping from their class to cruiser.


WANTED:  Auburn prototype 20" frame (longshot I know)

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#21 2012-12-11 3:41pm

SCIVIC94
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From: New Jersey
Registered: 2008-01-23
Posts: 2652
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Re: The old vs new and seat post argument that ends up in most threads.

Therealpoorboy wrote:

bailhard wrote:

Geometry makes absolutely no difference to me whatsoever. I can ride anything. I can do the EXACT same things on my old school bikes that I can on my new school bike(which I got rid of because it was ugly).

If 1 degree of head tube angle makes SUCH A HUGE difference in how you ride, and what you can do, then you are magical. If 1 degree of difference makes SUCH A HUGE difference, that it hinders your abilities, then you probably suck anyhow.

You like some bikes, I like others. You will NEVER convince me that new school is better, and i will NEVER try to convince you that old school is better.

I love cheesy nacho's  cool

Edit: No T in nacho's, but I spelled the most important part correctly. . .  cheesy

He's arguing with math and all he can come up with is he can feel the difference.  I wonder what happens when the bomb gets dropped that most most cruisers still use 73 HT's.  if it was as big of a deal as he makes it alot more people would be complaining jumping from their class to cruiser.

i have had 4 different cruisers and all 4 rode different next stupid line you can can come up with?
i have also had an 94 auburn, 92 p.k.ripper, 80 schwinn sting, 97 peregrine proclass. all race bikes which seems to be all you want to argue over . guess what all 4 rode different. yes math translates directly to how a bike feels when you ride it . does not matter if you jump from 20" to 24" cruiser  or stay on size. geometry does make a difference new or old.

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#22 2012-12-11 4:35pm

Therealpoorboy
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From: Md
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Posts: 329
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Re: The old vs new and seat post argument that ends up in most threads.

SCIVIC94 wrote:

i have had 4 different cruisers and all 4 rode different next stupid line you can can come up with?
i have also had an 94 auburn, 92 p.k.ripper, 80 schwinn sting, 97 peregrine proclass. all race bikes which seems to be all you want to argue over . guess what all 4 rode different. yes math translates directly to how a bike feels when you ride it . does not matter if you jump from 20" to 24" cruiser  or stay on size. geometry does make a difference new or old.

I've done nothing but supply factual data and your only rebutal is you can feel it.  I have a sneekin suspicion you cant feel the differnce between HT angles but are feeling different rake and trail of the forks.  but again thats just that old using math to solve problems thing again, I wouldnt worry about it If I were you.


WANTED:  Auburn prototype 20" frame (longshot I know)

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#23 2012-12-11 4:38pm

cdridesonly
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Re: The old vs new and seat post argument that ends up in most threads.

comparing 90s to now, really isn't comparing that much..  as for geometry, unless going from a GT or whatever before 97.   


80s to frames of now on the other hand... very huge difference, not just length, but the angles, and super high bottom bracket heights.



The 95 dirtbike, the frame everyone and their mother had and still hadrons for, has a 73 head angle, 20" top tube, 15" rear with 12" bb height..  A very "wack" geometry compared to today.  It's weird how it's more valuable then any Stardard.  Standards, pretty much all of the standards, except the OX Tao, had the same geometry  of 74ht/71st, 13.75 slammed, 11.5bb height which is pretty much "the standard" of today's frame geometry, and yet no one will even buy an STA or even take one for that matter.  top tubes of course were 18 to 22, whatever custom size you wanted!

I can definitely feel the difference of any bike.   A 88 GT PFT, or really any GT before 98 feels like I'm ten feet in the air due to the high as hell bottom brackets, with the slow as hell 72.5 or whatever it is head angle.



Still, I hear ya on the OP,  you pretty much should just get used to the bike, and work with what you have.  Lately most, like myself, are just anal retentive.


When was fall?

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#24 2012-12-11 4:42pm

bailhard
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Re: The old vs new and seat post argument that ends up in most threads.

The two sides of this argument will NEVER agree. Seriously, stop trying to convince each other. Inevitably it will turn to frustration, insults, then the thread will be closed and we'll all look like dummy's.


I celebrate CHRISTMAS, I do not celebrate "The Holidays"

Also, Terry Fox is one of the greatest humans of all time. He just happens to be Canadian :-)

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#25 2012-12-11 5:08pm

Therealpoorboy
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From: Md
Registered: 2011-10-01
Posts: 329
Bikes: 8

Re: The old vs new and seat post argument that ends up in most threads.

bailhard wrote:

The two sides of this argument will NEVER agree. Seriously, stop trying to convince each other. Inevitably it will turn to frustration, insults, then the thread will be closed and we'll all look like dummy's.

The best part is I race a '09 Anarchy in class and '10 standard in cruiser.  I just dont allow the math to be overpowered by the myths.  I've setup plenty of road race motorcycles and dirtbikes to comprehend how every piece actually effects the overall end result.  But apperently I should have just gone with the 3rd grade responses to try and make my point.


WANTED:  Auburn prototype 20" frame (longshot I know)

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